Oh WAKE UP people!! - Page 5

Originalist · #41 11-19-2014, 10:29 AM

I see nothing in the words of Christ that ban Christians from working for their government or holding elected office. Furthermore, Jesus "not resisting" is not a mandate for us not to resist the evils of men at times IMO. He did not resist because he had a world to die for. I do not think that was a mandate for believers never to resist if, for example, their home is being broken into or their wife is being raped before their very eyes. Paul resisted at times by escaping authorities who were pursuing him.

n david · #42 11-19-2014, 10:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rudy

John 19:9-11 (New King James Version
9 and went again into the Praetorium, and said to Jesus, “Where are You from?” But Jesus gave him no answer. 10 Then Pilate said to Him, “Are You not speaking to me? Do You not know that I have power to crucify You, and power to release You?” 11 Jesus answered, “You could have no power at all against Me unless it had been given you from above

Again, a scripture posted which contains a statement with which no one disagrees. Absolutely true; Pilate had no power over Jesus without it being given him.

That doesn't mean we are to be lazy and do nothing in civil government.

Rudy · #43 11-19-2014, 10:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by n david

Not sure what this has to do with anything. No one argues what this scripture is saying. Obviously the Lord rules over all.

He is in charge of human government--yes?

Rudy · #44 11-19-2014, 10:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by n david

Again, a scripture posted which contains a statement with which no one disagrees. Absolutely true; Pilate had no power over Jesus without it being given him.

That doesn't mean we are to be lazy and do nothing in civil government.

Did God make a mistake appointing Pilate?

seguidordejesus · #45 11-19-2014, 11:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by n david

Doesn't take away from the fact that he was informed and used his political knowledge for both his personal benefit (to save his life) and as you state, to benefit the kingdom of God.

Paul's ministry was to build the early church. That was his role. We all have various roles, which include being active in civil government. How else can there be good rulers as apposed to the evil rulers, if Christians were not to be involved in civil government.

You don't have to be a Christian to be a good ruler. Source: the Bible.

seguidordejesus · #46 11-19-2014, 11:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Originalist

I see nothing in the words of Christ that ban Christians from working for their government or holding elected office. Furthermore, Jesus "not resisting" is not a mandate for us not to resist the evils of men at times IMO. He did not resist because he had a world to die for. I do not think that was a mandate for believers never to resist if, for example, their home is being broken into or their wife is being raped before their very eyes. Paul resisted at times by escaping authorities who were pursuing him.

I wouldn't say Christians holding office is a sin or anything close, but Christians being in any capacity where they could cause violence to others is, at best, misguided, and they should think long and hard about it, because the compromises one must make to work with others in that situation will change them, and not for the better. Much better to work from the periphery on their own terms and control.

Did the early Christians resist as they were being put to death? Or did people marvel at how well they died? I am not taking these situations lightly , but we must be honest with ourselves.

(that said, nothing wrong with hitting the thief/rapist over the head with a chair)

n david · #47 11-19-2014, 11:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rudy

He is in charge of human government--yes?

I can do this as well.

Ps 47:8
God reigns over the nations, God sits on His holy throne.

Col 1:16
For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities - all things were created through him and for him.

1 Chron 29:11, 12
Yours, LORD, is the greatness and the power and the glory and the majesty and the splendor, for everything in heaven and earth is yours. Yours, LORD, is the kingdom; you are exalted as head over all. Wealth and honor come from you; you are the ruler of all things. In your hands are strength and power to exalt and give strength to all

We can write all the scriptures about God being above all, in control of all; that He alone both sets up and brings down governments.

It has nothing to do with whether or not Christians should be involved in civil government. Nothing. So yes, to answer the same question you ask over and over, yes God is in control.

No one is arguing that.

Here's a question for you: Do you believe God to be so limited and small that He cannot be in control if a Christian becomes involved in civil government? Does God suddenly lose power?

Please show me a scripture which says Christians should not be involved in civil government, not these others about God ruling above all.

TGBTG · #48 11-19-2014, 11:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Originalist

We do not have to bow to a lawless President and we do not have to obey lawless judges. But if you think any of this can be resolved without civil disobedience you are dreaming. These judges are going to have to be scared off the bench. They are going to have to see angry mobs surrounding their offices and homes. They are going to have to see the fury of the American people starring them right in the eye. NO I am NOT even remotely hinting and doing what Timothy McVeigh did. I'm talking about doing what our colonial ancestors did.

Quote:

Originally Posted by n david

Please show me a scripture which says Christians should not be involved in civil government, not these others about God ruling above all.

I'd say getting involved in government is pretty different from civil disobedience. As per civil disobedience, wouldn't Rom 13 be against that?

Rom 13 (context: Roman Government)
1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.
3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:

n david · #49 11-19-2014, 11:53 AM

Rudy & Seguidordejesus:

Do you believe there was not one civil servant during the period of the early church which was a Christian, or became a Christian while they were working in civil government?

I don't read of any grace or salvation litmus test in the Bible. Not even in the Nearly Inspired Version.

Yet, we read that God used Esther to save her people. Good thing she didn't believe she shouldn't be involved in civil government. Obviously she should have just kept her mouth shut and allowed her people to die, I mean, since many in the early church allowed themselves to be killed for Christ.

Or for that matter, what of Daniel? Joseph? These men and Esther were serving pagan Kings and Pharaohs.

You can read many stories of Godly people becoming involved in civil government. What you cannot find is any verse or chapter where it is either forbidden or hinted against doing so.

Originalist · #50 11-19-2014, 12:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by seguidordejesus

I wouldn't say Christians holding office is a sin or anything close, but Christians being in any capacity where they could cause violence to others is, at best, misguided, and they should think long and hard about it, because the compromises one must make to work with others in that situation will change them, and not for the better. Much better to work from the periphery on their own terms and control.

Did the early Christians resist as they were being put to death? Or did people marvel at how well they died? I am not taking these situations lightly , but we must be honest with ourselves.

(that said, nothing wrong with hitting the thief/rapist over the head with a chair)

They were put to death because they were captured. Paul evaded capture at times. Though when confronted by authorities for the gospel,if there was no way to escape I would not resist. However, revolution against evil is a different topic altogether IMO. Are you saying the American Revolution was a sin?