Calling on the Name of Jesus (at baptism)

[Steve Epley]

I prefer to be taught Hebrew by those who can read and speak the language.
Surely you can do that? If not then......

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by FlamingZword

You bring out some interesting points.

We need to realize that the S at the name of Jesus is not part of the original pronunciation, the S sound is a Greek device used to indicate that a name is masculine. Paul was Paulous, Mark was Marcus and so on the S sound was not a part of the Latin grammar. that is why in Latin the S at the end is missing an it is spelled as Iesu.

as a matter of fact even some English translations have the name with the missing S at the end.
(Tyndale 1534) “Remember ye not that all we which are baptysed in the name of Iesu Christ”
(Matthews 1537) “Remember ye not that all we which are baptized in the name of Jesu Christ”

There is no reason whatsoever for the name in English to be Jesus the ending of a name in the letter "s" is not a part of the English grammar, it was simply transliterated from the Greek name.

So if some early English bibles actually spelled the name as Jesu without the "s" sound at the end then it is obvious that the name Iesu is not correctly transliterated into English.

S?

Iesus is the combination of the Greek, Latin, to late modern 18th, 19th century English. Tyndale translated his English Bible when scholars still spoke LATIN fluently. He stayed with the LATIN Iesu. Still, the issue is about words, names, transliterated not an interpretation, or translation. It is like Michael being Miguel, this Hebrew name Mikha'el is transliterated in many languages yet trying to keep its "phonetic meaning" which is what transliteration is all about! Not spelling! They Santiago is Saint Yakov NOT James, but the Spanish makes great strives to keep the "phonetics" not spelling.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

I prefer to be taught Hebrew by those who can read and speak the language.
Surely you can do that? If not then......

Χόντ-ντόγκ with mustard only!

Never ketchup!

[FlamingZword]

Originally Posted by votivesoul

I think the issue is more with the phonetics of the name versus the orthography.

Phonetically, we pronounce the name Jesus like so:

[GEE-zuss] or, more formally, [dʒiːzəs]

Yeshua is pronounced like so:

[ye-SHOO-ah], or more formally, [yēšūă‘]

Every available allophone of each phoneme in each name is completely different from the corresponding one. See the list:

The Letter "J" Versus The Letter "Y"

J = voiced post-alveolar affricate /dʒ/ (i.e. a hard "g" sound, as in jeans)
Y = palatal approximate /j/ (as in yes)

The Letter "E" Versus The Letter "E"

E = close front unrounded vowel /iː/ (as in geese)
E = close-mid front unrounded vowel /e/ (as in trestle)

The Letter "S" Versus The Letters "SH"

S = voiced alveolar fricative /z/ (as in zip)
SH = voiceless post alveolar sibilant /ʃ/ (as in shun)

The Letter "U" Versus The Letter "U"

U = mid central vowel /ə/ (known as "schwa" in English, as in salami)
U = close back rounded vowel /u/ (as in "loose")

The Letter "S" Versus The Letter "A"

S = voiceless alveolar fricative /s/ (as in confess)
A = open mid-back unrounded vowel /ʌ/ (as in rut)

To simply:

- /dʒ/ versus /j/, or "J" versus "Y"

- /iː/ versus /e/, or "E" versus "E"

- [z] versus /ʃ/, or "S" versus "SH"

- /ə/ versus /u/, or "U" versus "U"

- /s/ versus /ʌ/, or "S" versus "A"

Allophonetically, or in the individual sounds of each name, it is quite clear that Jesus and Yeshua ARE NOT THE SAME NAME AT ALL.

They don't even bear a passing resemblance, allophonetically speaking (not to mention syllablically). Just say them out loud one after the other after the other for awhile. If we took someone else's name and evolved or changed it as much allophonetically speaking, if we tried to address them with the evolved or changed version, they wouldn't know we were addressing them and would correct us and tell us that the evolved or changed version isn't their name.

And yet the Son of God seems to respond to either pronunciation, whether in prayer, in the working of miracles, or in baptism.

What then does this suggest?

It suggests to me that:

1.) The name of our Lord isn't a magic charm or incantation dependent upon an exact pronunciation (although we can all agree, I think, that his name isn't Ted, or Brian, or Henry, and etc.).

2.) The name of our Lord stands in for an actual, living person who is capable of knowing whether or not we mean or intend to refer to Him whether we say His name just right or not (so long as we aren't trying to completely rename Him, as in the parenthetical example above).

3.) That Hebrew is not a sacred or divine language; God responds to every tongue

4.) That the Sacred Name crowd are picking a fight with everyone else that God didn't ask them to pick

5.) That it comes down to personal preference

6.) That being the case, no one should judge another for their personal preference

7.) That the Lord would have us unify around Him, as a person, and not dis-unify against Him as if He is merely a name

Thank you, that is why I use both names Interchangeably, because both names are referring to the same person.

I now prefer to use the name Yeshua because it is much closer to the original.

I still use the name Jesus out of habit and also because I do not want to confuse some people who are still behind this new revelation.

I hope that gently but surely many Christians will eventually start calling him by his proper name instead of a translation or transliteration.

[seguidordejesus]

Originally Posted by FlamingZword

Here is another new concept for you.

"I baptize you in the name of Yeshua HaMashiach, Jesus Christ"

I pronounce clearly both his original Hebrew name and his American name.

I sure hope you're saying it right so he knows you're talking to him.

[seguidordejesus]

You guys let us know when you get it figured out.

[seguidordejesus]

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

I prefer to be taught Hebrew by those who can read and speak the language.
Surely you can do that? If not then......

[Esaias]

God preserved the name of the saviour in Greek. Iesous. Pronounced in Greek "Yay soos". That name in Spanish is Jesus pronounced "Hay soos". In English it is Jesus pronounced "Jee zuhs".

Expecting or hoping everyone will revert to an assumed "Hebrew" pronunciation or spelling is ridiculous.

The apostles NEVER insisted the Gentiles ought to pronounce the name with an imitative Hebrew mannerism.

Therefore Sacred Namism is NON APOSTOLIC.

[Esaias]

"This new revelation..."

Therefore a modern innovation and something unknown to the original apostolics.

[Steve Epley]

Originally Posted by seguidordejesus

You guys let us know when you get it figured out.

I debated a Yahweh guy since I debated him he has been baptized a couple of more times with a new understanding of the "correct" pronunciation.