Elephant in the room - accusation of judging

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by shazeep

does anyone outside your sect of OP get saved or not, Mike.

Anyone who obeys the word, regardless of what name is over their door, is saved. They're not saved the way I think they should obey it. But by their obedience to what it actually means.

Now, when are you going to deal with the point of the thread? I don't know of anyone who takes rabbit trails like you do. lol

Deal with Ezekiel 3 and show us how you're not violating it.

[shazeep]

blow chunks, Mike.

Originally Posted by mfblume

Anyone who obeys the word, regardless of what name is over their door, is saved.

ok, this part makes sense, but the part below doesn't, so clear that up, and we'll get to your statement here.

Originally Posted by mfblume

They're not saved the way I think they should obey it. But by their obedience to what it actually means.

[shazeep]

ok never mind, i get you i'm pretty sure, still just in shock that you are saying this now, gimme a minute.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by shazeep

ok never mind, i get you i'm pretty sure, still just in shock that you are saying this now, gimme a minute.

You mean you thought something of me that might be wrong?

GOD FORBID!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I've always been pointing to the word and not ME. lol You just getting that? I guess repetition, repetition, repetition, repetition, does work after a while.

[shazeep]

ya ok, and i guess maybe your meds have been properly adjusted. jerk.

Originally Posted by mfblume

Deal with the thread's point. Phew!

give orders to your minions, Mike, i am not your boy. You started this thread for me. So anyone who obeys the Word is saved now? Can a Catholic who obeys the Word be saved?

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by shazeep

ya ok, and i guess maybe your meds have been properly adjusted. jerk.give orders to your minions, Mike, i am not your boy. You started this thread for me. So anyone who obeys the Word is saved now? Can a Catholic who obeys the Word be saved?

Talk somewhere else then. This thread is about the theme of the thread.

Any more names?

Waiting for the theme's discussion....

Stop responding to me if you don't want to do things other than attack me.

I won't respond again to spare people who are bored to death with this nonsense.

[shazeep]

no, you won't respond again because you're about to get nailed into another one of your religious inconsistencies, c'mon. It's a simple question. When are you going to face it?

[votivesoul]

Life has a lot of gray areas, to be sure. But salvation and eternity? Not so much.

Salvation and eternity are more like computing code, all one's or zero's.

1 = true

0 = false

So, when asking or asked certain statements that pertain to salvation and eternity, the correct, accurate answer will either be a 1 or a 0.

For instance:

Does God exist?

This can be asked by or of anyone. It's either yes He does or no He doesn't. There is no middle ground here.

Choose the wrong answer, and consequences ensue.

If God is real, is He personal?

Could be yes, or no. Again, no middle ground. Choose the wrong answer, and face consequences.

If God is real, and He is personal, does He have a set way by which He interacts with us?

Maybe yes, maybe no. No middle ground. Choose and see what happens.

Does He communicate with us?

Yea or nay, but no gray, and choose wisely or face the music.

And the list could go on.

Eventually, ask enough varied yes or no questions, and you will find out very quickly what you believe.

Now, it's perfectly acceptable to say "I don't know/not sure" to any of these questions. One could also answer "Doesn't matter/who cares?", if one were so inclined.

But not knowing or not caring doesn't mean there isn't an answer. And no one should be automatically excluded from having their say, if they claim they know the answer and care enough to share it.

Now, eventually, if you ask enough people, you will likely get so many different answers as to boggle the mind.

It almost seems hopeless and/or useless to try and figure it out.

This is where shutting out the noise and distractions comes into play. One must make a personal effort to find out the truth to any of these questions. Or not. It's up to each person to decide for themselves.

But be warned. Not seeking may cost you everything. Seeking may cost you even more!

The point in all of this, is that, if we ever decide to narrow our search parameters to Christianity and the Bible, some even more pointed, very specific yes or no questions come into play.

Is Jesus real/Did Jesus exist?

Is Jesus the Son of God?

Is Jesus the only way, truth, and life?

Are the Gospels accurate accounts of His life and teachings?

Are the other written documents of the New Testament reliable for faith and doctrine?

Again, there isn't any middle ground here. It's either yes, or no to such questions, as far as accurately answering them is concerned.

Now, you may ask me, or him, or her, or them, or this group or that group, and get all the same answers, some of the same and some different, or all different answers to each of these questions and more.

And again, a decision has to be made: What to believe about any of this?

Is there any way of knowing the answer to these questions? Should I believe him or her? Them, or not them? Is it hopeless/useless to even try?

This is where faith comes in. Faith requires risk. What are you willing to risk in order to find answers, real answers, that are true and not false, ones, and not zeroes?

In the end, we may end up believing a myriad of different things through life, and change with the seasons. But somewhere, at some point in time, some bedrock convictions usually begin to form, and a person eventually, for the most part, ends up sold out to something.

Here's what it's going to come down to: In the total sum of personal experience, which answers led you to truth, and which to not true?

If you come to me and ask me "If I touch a hot stove, will my hand get burned, yes or no/true or not true/1 or 0?".

If I say you will not get burned, the only way you're ever going to know for sure, is if you risk it, and try. When your hand comes away burned, you, feeling burned, will know not to trust me, anymore.

Experience points +1.

Now, with that in mind, you'll likely begin to testify to others something like this:

"Did you know that if you touch a hot stove, your hand will get burned? It's true. I tried it myself, and here is the scar from when I was burned."

Admittedly, some will heed you, and upon your witness, not risk putting their hand to a hot stove, and in this way, your testimony has saved someone an injury. And admittedly, some won't listen, and will try for themselves, and get burned, too. Some will respond as follows: "You were right all along. I should have listened to you." Others will get mad and blame you for them burning themselves, because, had you never said anything, they probably would have never cared enough to try to find out.

And still others won't try to begin with, because they don't care. Or they will delay, and find a more convenient time to try, when they are more prepared to risk injury.

You see. All of this is highly spiritual. In the end, we all believe what we want to. But one day, were going to meet the stove-maker, and we will either have burned our hands, never to touch a hot stove again, or we will have never burned our hands, confessing we believed the testimony of others, or, one day, you're going to meet the stove-maker, and confess you never tried to find out the truth.

And what do you suppose will happen then?

If Jesus existed and He is real, and if He is the Son of God, and the Gospels are accurate accounts of His life and teachings, and if the other documents of the New Testament are reliable for faith and doctrine, then anyone so interested, ought to be able to put Him to the test, and see for themselves. A little application goes a long way.

(continued below...)

[votivesoul]

(...from above)

I heard my best friend speak in tongues, and was instantly convinced God existed. I prayed one day to Him and asked Him a very, very specific question, and opened the Bible and found the answer. I prayed again, and He answered directly, exactly as I needed Him to, again from the Bible. I started reading the Bible, in a haphazard way, looking mostly for answers to questions other people had, even though I didn't think of myself a believer.

Eventually, I took a risk, and went to my friend's church. I didn't tell anyone I was coming. I just showed up. During song service, I wanted so desperately to sing along, but I couldn't. Something was holding me back. I stood, holding the back of the chair in front of me, knuckles fully white. All I could manage was a small toe-tap inside my left shoe. I had committed myself, if asked, to agree to pray. A general call to prayer was made and I elected, un-coerced, to go up to where the pulpit was. I knelt down, thinking it was the right thing to do. I took my glasses off and buried my face in my hands, with my head bowed to the floor. I said, "Jesus, I feel dumb, because I don't know how to pray and I'm not sure what I'm supposed to say".

Suddenly I realized I was about to cry. I experienced an internal dialogue about whether I would or wouldn't let myself cry. I chose to let go. Pangs of remorse and conviction swept over me and I began to sob uncontrollably, almost to the point of convulsion, my body wracked with pain. All I could say was "I'm sorry". One hundred times I must have said it, if I said it once. Someone, then someone else, then another put their hands on me, but I didn't pay it much attention.

So uncontrollable were the sobs, so great was the pain, I began to panic. I began to feel this terribly heavy, crushing weight descend upon me. I was being pressed to the floor. I thought I was having a heart attack. At the last second, when I couldn't take anymore, two hands reached over me and underneath the weight and lifted it off of me and placed it--I could clearly discern, eyes closed and all, upon His own shoulder. Invisibly, but unmistakably, Jesus was standing behind me. A few short moments later, a man asked me "What doth hinder thee to be baptized?" Shortly thereafter, I was in water, being immersed in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, and coming up out of the water, the Holy Spirit descended upon me and I was born again. I spoke with other tongues, had a vision of the Lord being scourged and crucified, and was delivered from every form of spiritual bondage I had experienced up until that point, being instantly cured of borderline personality and bi-polar disorder. For the first time in my life, I experienced personal righteousness. Being baptized and receiving the Holy Spirit was the first thing that had ever happened in my life that didn't make me feel like a failure.

That was March 9, 2003. For nearly two weeks, I walked in a kind of mental fog, like I couldn't think straight. I almost felt like I had forgotten how to speak. My mind was strangely, for the first time, as if it was empty. Going into that day, I probably couldn't quote any one verse of the Bible from memory, but later on, I learned the following verses:

1 Corinthians 14:22,

22. Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not...

My friend speaking with other tongues was a sign to me who believed not. Hearing him speak in tongues instantly caused me to believe that God was real; indeed that the God of the Bible was real.

Psalm 65:2,

2. 2 O thou that hearest prayer, unto thee shall all flesh come.

John 14:14,

14. If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

I came to God and asked Him a very specific thing in prayer. He heard it and Jesus answered me from the Bible.

Romans 10:17,

17. So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

I began reading the Bible, and little did I know, that the more I read, even though it was for other people, my faith was growing, and I was being led to the edge, ready to take a risk by taking a plunge, and going to church.

1 Peter 5:6-7,

6. Humble yourselves therefore under the mighty hand of God, that he may exalt you in due time:
7. Casting all your care upon him; for he careth for you.

Psalm 95:6,

6. O come, let us worship and bow down: let us kneel before the Lord our maker.

I don't know why I took to my knees before God. It just seemed appropriate. I didn't know at the time why I couldn't sing along and enjoy the presence of God, until much later. Nor did I know that casting my cares upon Him after kneeling down, would cause such a saving change in my life.

John 16:7-9,

7. Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
8. And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
9. Of sin, because they believe not on me...

When I was eleven years old, my best friend's mom asked me if I had ever heard of the Holy Spirit. My reply was "no". Even just minutes before receiving the Holy Spirit, I couldn't for the life of me say much about It. But It was there, all the same, reproving me of my sins, and for not believing on Jesus. As I wept, then sobbed, telling Jesus how sorry I was, the Holy Spirit was there, making it all happen, just like Jesus said it would.

Romans 6:23,

23. For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

2 Corinthians 5:21,

21. For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Acts 8:36,

36. And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?

Acts 22:16,

16. And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

Acts 2:17,

17. And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions...

Acts 2:4,

4. And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

2 Corinthians 5:17,

17. Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Romans 9:30,

30. What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.

1 Corinthians 3:18-20,

18. Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise.
19. For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.
20. And again, The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain.

I didn't know anything about atonement, propitiation, or substitutionary sacrifice. But as the weight of my sins came down on me and seemed to be crushing me to death, Jesus, standing behind me, came in at the last moment and took them off of me and put them on Himself. He completely atoned for all of my sins, by becoming my sins for me.

A little while later, as the man was asking what hindered me, not having an answer was the very thing that convinced me to be baptized. I had always thought I was so smart, so ready to defend myself and explain why God wasn't real, that Jesus didn't matter, that I was who I was for good reasons, and etc. My mind was like an active volcano, always churning, always moving, fast and dangerous. As I came up out of the water, to receive the Holy Spirit, and a vision of the Lord's passion, to prophesy by speaking with other tongues, I experienced the righteousness of the Lord imparted to me by faith. God was curing me of all the damage my sins had done to me. I was forgiven. And in forgiveness I found myself mentally, emotionally, and spiritually healed. What none of the several different psychologists, psychiatrists, and counselors, with all their therapies, sessions, medicines, and hospitals couldn't do in over 10 years, Jesus did in less than 10 minutes.

My best friend's mom later told me that as I was receiving the Holy Spirit, she had a vision in which she saw all these chains unwinding themselves and falling off of my heart. I was a new creature in Christ.

And even though the Lord had taken me in my own presumed craftiness and made all that I thought I was a dung hill, I was nonetheless experiencing this:

Romans 12:2-3,

2. And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
3. For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

At this point in my life, I don't need anyone here or there or anywhere to convince me God is real, Jesus is Lord, forgiveness and remission of sins is possible, that speaking with other tongues is evidence of receiving the Holy Spirit, that the Bible is the Word of God, and etc. As I said, a little application goes a long way.

I experienced all of it and more, for myself.

I know the TRUTH. The TRUTH has made me free (John 8:32). And knowing the TRUTH, I know where I would be, had I not been rescued by the WAY, the TRUTH, and the LIFE: Either dead from suicide, permanently institutionalized and drugged into non-existence, or in a prison some where, guilty of mass murder.

And so, when I see and think of people I know, or see and think of people I don't know, who have not had this experience, who don't know the TRUTH, who am I that I can act as if there is no need for me to "speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen" (John 3:11)?

I was in Hell ere I ever died and went there. I know it's real, and that many, perhaps even most, are currently as lost as I ever was. There is a way that leads to everlasting life, but it is narrow, and its gate is strait, and few there are that find it (Matthew 7:14).

Whether anyone cares to hear it from me of not, I don't care. I will tell them what the Lord has done, and who He is, and in so doing, save as many souls as I can, from death (James 5:20).

[votivesoul]

So you see, shazeep, you may snipe at us here for what we believe, make snarky comments, or whatever, and even attempt to prove us wrong and trip us up on what you proclaim are our own religious knots; well and good. Fine. Do as you think best.

But I note something in all your efforts: you offer no answer.

Had I met you back when, and if you, in the way you express yourself here, had expressed yourself then, I would have never come to the Lord and been saved.

Whatever your personal beliefs and feelings on any issue, your message isn't one of hope and good news. It doesn't offer the world anything. All you do is raise questions and cast doubts. Where is the solid rock in your witness? You seem constantly standing on shifting sand.

If I was lurking here, as an unbeliever, never otherwise acquainted with the Apostolic Faith, and read your comments, I would not once ever know how much God loved me, how much my unbelief would cost me in eternity, what Jesus did on the cross to save me, or how I could make His cross my own reality and find everlasting life.

Consider that for a moment, I pray. Really. Truly. In all your academic wrangling, I think you've fallen short and forgotten what this faith called Christianity is all about: seeking and saving that which is lost.

Nothing in your message moves me. Nothing in what you write, in the comments you make, would have loosened even the weakest of Satan's fingers from around my heart and life. And maybe the point is moot, being hypothetical, and so, it doesn't really matter.

But I see and I know what God did to bring me to His Son and the salvation found in Christ, and this message men like Mike Blume, Michael the Disciple, and Esaias, and Evangelist Benincasa, and others with whom you may have interacted, preach, and the stand they take was enough, in my own life, from the messengers of the Gospel God placed there, to take this crazy God-hating antichrist and see him saved.

What about the message you preach and the stand you take is seeing anyone saved, crazy, God-hating antichrist, or not?

Because, frankly, I can't see it.