Reconciling and purifying Heaven?

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by votivesoul

I would offer just the opposite, saying that because God was not reconciled to us, He provided Christ as the offering for sin, so He could become reconciled.

Just wanted to briefly go back to this real quick.

To be reconciled means to put an end to enmity. If you are reconciled to someone, it means you put down the enmity and move to get them reconciled back to you. Reconciliation between two parties is a two part thing. Each party should be reconciled to the other.

Now we definitely needed to be reconciled to God, because were at war with God, we were opposed to Him. So the message is "be ye reconciled to God". That is, put down your weapons and stop fighting against God, quit hating God and fighting against God.

Now the question is - was God reconciled to us? and if so, when? did the death of Jesus reconcile God to us?

If the death of Jesus reconciled God to us, it means that God was against us, counted us his enemies, UNTIL Jesus died. But this seems to fly in the face of everything that is said about the cross!

For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die. But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
(Romans 5:6-8)

While were still sinners, while we were still unrighteous enemies of God, God commended his love to us through Christ, as demonstrated in the death of Christ. Now, one doesn't die for those whom one is at war with and for those whom one counts as one's enemies. This isn't so much about Christ dying for those who counted themselves his enemies (although that is true), but about Christ dying for those whom HE counted as His enemies - if God was not reconciled to us until the cross.

In other words, God was already reconciled to us, God was not looking to destroy us, God was not putting in motion a punitive plan to punish His enemies. Rather, God loved us. He loved us, and therefore wanted our friendship and wanted to put man back into a right relationship with Him. this is clear (to me) that God was already reconciled to us. Otherwise, He would simply have destroyed us.

It is WE who are reconciled back to God through the cross. Through the cross WE have access to restoring a right relationship with God. Not by appeasing an offended Father, but by His love demonstrated through the cross wooing us and convincing us to lay down our arms against him.

But perhaps this gets into the subject of the nature of the Atonement? Is that where we need to go next, before moving on with the idea of things in heaven being reconciled to God? Obviously it's all connected,

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by votivesoul

In this way, if I am reading and exegeting the passage properly (think so, hope so!), it would appear that Jesus, while on earth, through His death on the cross, was able to provide His Father the means of finding reconciliation with humanity. This occurred, I believe, because 1.) Christ's death wrought atonement for sins, meaning His blood covers, and so, takes away, the sins of the world, and 2.) Christ's death propitiated the Father, or brought about in the Father a desire to forgive and not punish, so that, all who were enemies and aliens to God, could find their way back to Him, that is, the Father "who art in heaven" hallowed be His name.

I do not see how the cross wrought a change in God's disposition towards us. Rather, the cross (combined with our repentance) provides God the judicial reason for acting on His Divine sympathy and love for us. God couldn't act on that love by pardoning our sins without providing certain governmental remedies to offended justice. Otherwise He would be overthrowing His own government!

So God needed a mechanism whereby He could not only justify the ungodly, but be just in the way He did it. that is, He had to do it a certain way so as to maintain righteousness in his government of the universe.

Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
(Romans 3:24-26)

In other words, the cross did not change God's disposition towards us. Rather, the cross was a demonstration of God's disposition toward us.

[Amanah]

Originally Posted by Esaias

And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.
(Colossians 1:20)

It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:
(Hebrews 9:23-24)

Christ's work of reconciliation and purification is not limited to us, or to earthly things and people, but also involved a purifying of things in heaven, and/or heaven itself.

So, does anyone have any ideas about what that involves?

I think whatever the problem is, the ball is in our court. Jesus did his part of reconciliation an now the rest is up to us.

2 Corinthians 5King James Version (KJV)
5 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.
6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
7 For we walk by faith, not by sight:
8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.
12 For we commend not ourselves again unto you, but give you occasion to glory on our behalf, that ye may have somewhat to answer them which glory in appearance, and not in heart.
13 For whether we be beside ourselves, it is to God: or whether we be sober, it is for your cause.
14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:
15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.
16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.
17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.
21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Amen Esaias, you nailed it down 100%. Therefore Jesus was able to say “greater thing you will do then I have done”

[thephnxman]

His NAME is Jesus!

Originally Posted by Esaias

I do not see how the cross wrought a change in God's disposition towards us. Rather, the cross
(combined with our repentance) provides God the judicial reason for acting on His Divine
sympathy and love for us. God couldn't act on that love by pardoning our sins without providing
certain governmental remedies to offended justice. Otherwise He would be overthrowing His own government!
So God needed a mechanism whereby He could not only justify the ungodly, but be just in the way
He did it. that is, He had to do it a certain way so as to maintain righteousness in his government
of the universe.

Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God hath
set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission
of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness:
that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. (Romans 3:24-26)

In other words, the cross did not change God's disposition towards us. Rather, the cross was a demonstration
of God's disposition toward us.

The gospel that saves was not an afterthought of God.

Our deliverance through the Lord's propitiation had already been accomplished
even before creation.
However, it is your last sentence that manifests God's will and love for us: even
before we (man) were created.



Brother Villa

[votivesoul]

Originally Posted by Esaias

And my question is what are those things "in heaven" that are being reconciled back to God?

Playing a bit of catch up, so, decided it was best to pick up where I left off...

I understand your question better, now, I think. My answer largely remains the same, however. Here's why:

And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

http://biblehub.com/interlinear/colossians/1-20.htm

At the link above you can see that the word translated as "things" that pertains to "the heavens" is τὰ or ta.

Biblical Greek has 24 different forms of the definite article, and ta is one of those forms. In this case, ta is the accusative plural neuter.

Accusative refers to the direct object of the verb, or that which receives the action that the verb indicates is happening. As such, ta refers back to the verb "to reconcile". Secondly, ta is plural, meaning more than one, and refers then to whatever it is that is being reconciled (note, that "heavens" is in the dative case, meaning it's the indirect object, meaning that the "heavens" were not the recipients of the reconciliation). Finally, ta is neuter, meaning no gender has been assigned to it, and as can be seen, does not correspond to any particular word in the verse.

As such, the most literal rendering of ta ought to simply be "the" ("things" is merely implied due to the plural nature of the article).

This is how Professor Paul R. McReynolds renders ta in Colossians 1:20 in his Word Study Greek-English New Testament, a hyper-literal interlinear translation.

Unfortunately, I don't have a link that shows this. But I will copy it out from my copy, as follows:

and through him to thoroughly reconcile the all in him, having made peace through the blood of the cross of him, through him whether the on the earth or the in the heavens

Note the two words emboldened above. They are both ta in the Greek text.

Now, for a comparison, note how the Reina-Valera Version renders the verse:

Y por él reconciliar todas las cosas á sí, pacificando por la sangre de su cruz, así lo que está en la tierra como lo que está en los cielos.

The words "lo que" that I have underlined above are singular, that is, had they been pluralized, they would have read "los que". As such, "lo que" functions as a demonstrative pronoun, namely the Spanish equivalent to the English word "that".

And when we look more closely at the word ta, recognizing it for what it is, we see that ta actually functions just so, that is, as a demonstrative pronoun. See here:

http://biblehub.com/greek/3588.htm

From the link above:

...corresponds to our definite article the (German der, die, das), which is properly a demonstrative pronoun...

And again,

...As a demonstrative pronoun...

And,

...in prose, where it makes a partition or distributes into parts...that...

What does this all mean?

Essentially, it means the verse should likely read like this:

And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether [that which is] in earth, or [that which is] in heaven.

"That which is in heaven" then shows that God can very much be the "thing" in heaven that needed to be reconciled, such as my opening post showed.

(To be continued...)

[votivesoul]

Continued...

Originally Posted by votivesoul

Playing a bit of catch up, so, decided it was best to pick up where I left off...

I understand your question better, now, I think. My answer largely remains the same, however. Here's why:



http://biblehub.com/interlinear/colossians/1-20.htm

At the link above you can see that the word translated as "things" that pertains to "the heavens" is τὰ or ta.

Biblical Greek has 24 different forms of the definite article, and ta is one of those forms. In this case, ta is the accusative plural neuter.

Accusative refers to the direct object of the verb, or that which receives the action that the verb indicates is happening. As such, ta refers back to the verb "to reconcile". Secondly, ta is plural, meaning more than one, and refers then to whatever it is that is being reconciled (note, that "heavens" is in the dative case, meaning it's the indirect object, meaning that the "heavens" were not the recipients of the reconciliation). Finally, ta is neuter, meaning no gender has been assigned to it, and as can be seen, does not correspond to any particular word in the verse.

As such, the most literal rendering of ta ought to simply be "the" ("things" is merely implied due to the plural nature of the article).

This is how Professor Paul R. McReynolds renders ta in Colossians 1:20 in his Word Study Greek-English New Testament, a hyper-literal interlinear translation.

Unfortunately, I don't have a link that shows this. But I will copy it out from my copy, as follows:



Note the two words emboldened above. They are both ta in the Greek text.

Now, for a comparison, note how the Reina-Valera Version renders the verse:



The words "lo que" that I have underlined above are singular, that is, had they been pluralized, they would have read "los que". As such, "lo que" functions as a demonstrative pronoun, namely the Spanish equivalent to the English word "that".

And when we look more closely at the word ta, recognizing it for what it is, we see that ta actually functions just so, that is, as a demonstrative pronoun. See here:

http://biblehub.com/greek/3588.htm

From the link above:



And again,



And,



What does this all mean?

Essentially, it means the verse should likely read like this:



"That which is in heaven" then shows that God can very much be the "thing" in heaven that needed to be reconciled, such as my opening post showed.

(To be continued...)

Just some follow up info to make sure I've addressed any loose strings.

I mentioned in the above the following:

Secondly, ta is plural, meaning more than one, and refers then to whatever it is that is being reconciled...

This might look like I've contradicted myself, since I make the claim at the end of the post that there was only one "thing" in heaven being reconciled, which is, God. But it's not the case. Here's why:

Earlier in the verse, Paul writes of "all things", or ta panta. This phrase is used to refer to both that which is on earth and that which is in heaven. This shows that there are two different categories: an earthly and a heavenly, both of which needed and so, received reconciliation through the blood of Christ on the cross.

As such, the plurality of ta from later in the verse, is a referent back to the "all things", or, the two categories. It doesn't mean that whatever it is in heaven that needs reconciliation is more than one, or plural, but that whatsoever it is in both earth and heaven that need reconciliation is more than one, or plural.

__________________________________________________ _____________________________

Also, I would like to note that in the underlying Greek text, there is no word for "be" as in "whether they be things...". As such, to read like that, particularly the KJV and maybe others, can give a wrong idea about how the verse ought to be read. The underlying Greek text is much more concise.

[Esaias]

Rom_11:15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
2Co_5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
Mat_5:24 Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.
Rom_5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
1Co_7:11 But and if she depart, let her remain unmarried, or be reconciled to her husband: and let not the husband put away his wife.
2Co_5:18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
2Co_5:20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.
Col_1:21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled
Heb_2:17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.


These are all the verses in the new testament containing the word reconcile, reconciled, reconciliation, reconciling. Reconciles was not present.

In every case, it something being reconciled to God, or a person being reconciled to another person. There is not one instance that I could find where God is said to be reconciled to anything or anyone.

In your post, you said that the thing in heaven needing to be reconciled was God. But this means God was reconciling Himself to Himself. Because the verse says He reconciled all things to himself, whether that which is in earth or that which is in heaven. Therefore, the thing(s) in heaven that were reconciled to God would not be God. How does God reconcile God to God?

Rom 5:11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.

This word atonement is the same word elsewhere translated reconciliation. It says we have now received the reconciliation by Jesus Christ. Was God atoned? no, we were. Therefore we were reconciled.

so i must conclude there is nothing in the Bible - at least not in the new testament - which speaks of God being reconciled to anything or anyone. Rather, reconciliation is something that turns us or other things back to God. God did not need to be turned back to us, otherwise He would not have provided the Cross. The Cross is God's way of letting us know He is favourable toward us. The Cross is what causes us to be amenable to God, so that we repent and love him. It works a change in us.

The Cross did not work a change in God, but it works a change in us.

Again, the original verse says the things were reconciled by God to Himself. If the things include God, then you have God reconciling God to God. I do not see any way out of that?

[votivesoul]

Hi, Esaias,

Will try to get back later tonight or very soon to play some more catch and give a response to your post #48.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by votivesoul

Hi, Esaias,

Will try to get back later tonight or very soon to play some more catch and give a response to your post #48.

Sounds good.