Struggling with Doctrine & Faith

[Tithesmeister]

Originally Posted by jediwill83

Heres the deal..if you're going to apply an OT curse for certain behavior its gotta be used in context and that means that the tithe and offereings*plural* must be given in the same way at the same times to the same people for the same reasons...Theology aint like playing around with Mr. Potato Head...snatching a nose here and an eye there and stick them wherever.


When I said you I didnt mean "you" personally...just a general statement.


My red pill moment on tithing was when I found the scripture that mentions "eating of the tithe"


Not the smartest cookie in the jar but I knew that you cant eat money.


Then when I brought it up I was actually told,"Well, that's because they didnt HAVE money because they were an agrarian society."


Well...is money mentioned in the OT?


Cause it is...


So I was passed some bad excuses for bad docrine not supported by scripture.


Anyone that says "Dont question"...thats because they dont have good answers and they dont want you looking too closely.

IIRC, money is mentioned more in the book of Genesis than any other book in the Bible. More than all the New Testament books combined.

Also money is mentioned (l believe) forty two times, BEFORE the word tithe is ever mentioned in Genesis.

[Tithesmeister]

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister

IIRC, money is mentioned more in the book of Genesis than any other book in the Bible. More than all the New Testament books combined.

Also money is mentioned (l believe) forty two times, BEFORE the word tithe is ever mentioned in Genesis.

Correction: Money is mentioned thirty one times in Genesis unless I have made a mistake in counting , however tithes is mentioned first. Tithes is mentioned in the fourteenth chapter, while money is first mentioned in chapter seventeen.

I think money is mentioned forty eight times before the tithe was ordered by God in the book of Leviticus. So, just trying to set the record straight.

[jediwill83]

Sorry for that duplicate post.

[Tithesmeister]

It is pretty obvious that for whatever reason, God did NOT want His tithe to be rendered in money. Because money was certainly available.

[Spirit&Truth]

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister

It is pretty obvious that for whatever reason, God did NOT want His tithe to be rendered in money. Because money was certainly available.

It seems obvious to me that it is because of Jacob's vow. I believe that vow is tied super close with the OT concept of tithing. They were literally giving a tenth of the promised land back to God. God never even initially commanded it; God promised to give him the promised land, and in response Jacob promised he would give a tenth of what God gave him. This was all related to the richness of the land, not money.

[jediwill83]

Originally Posted by Spirit&Truth

It seems obvious to me that it is because of Jacob's vow. I believe that vow is tied super close with the OT concept of tithing. They were literally giving a tenth of the promised land back to God. God never even initially commanded it; God promised to give him the promised land, and in response Jacob promised he would give a tenth of what God gave him. This was all related to the richness of the land, not money.

Not only that but when you get into the Levitical tithe system...how many tithes were there?


Who tithed when did they tithe and what did they tithe?


Was the tithe supposed to go just to the priests?


All of it?


Were the Levites that were not priests in service to the temple...were they performing any I dunno....governmental bureaucratic work?





Lotta questions to be answered if we are following the scripture in its entirety and again...we cant jerryrig curses on people that dont apply and NEITHER can we declare BLESSINGS out of context as well....

[Esaias]

I think a lot of folks simply use the term "tithe", or " tithes and offerings", to simply mean donations to the church/ministry. So when these people hear "No tithe is taught in the NT!" they assume, or interpret, it to mean "No giving of money, no supporting the church/ministry, is taught in the NT!"

So, maybe a more productive approach (generally speaking) may be to promote unselfish giving of whatever resources one has available, and teaching the agricultural tithe of Israel as a example and principle of community support for 1) teaching and propagation of the Word, 2) orphans, 3) widows, and 4) pilgrims/foreignors visiting the community. As well as the concept of vows and obligations persisting across generations, the idea of representative ("federal") headship, land ownership and the landlord-tenant relationship between God and the nation, etc.

[ApostolicNativ]

When you pray, pray for love of the Truth. Love for His Word. 2 Thessalonians 2:7-10 .
We can deceive ourselves because our perception gets twisted by this flesh we live in. Our bodies love to sin but we cannot lean on our own understanding.

For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 9Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. 13But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

My pastor told a story of a man who fought for this truth with a passion but because he enjoyed some things contrary to the Word, which is iniquity, he eventually believed another doctrine and left this faith. One Lord, One Faith, One Baptism. I got to go but ill leave off at this, WE CANNOT BABY THIS FLESH WE LIVE IN, we MUST fast when it wants to SIN. It'll lie to us, bring us straight to hell.

[ApostolicNativ]

Ephesians 4:14 KJVS
That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight j of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

He is not the author of confusion. If we don't believe scripture, we won't believe if someone was raised from the dead right in front of our eyes. Scary waters your treading on. Push in prayer, He won't let you go without an answer.

[coksiw]

Very good insightful posts here. Thanks Esaias, good stuff.

Spirit&Truth, beware of the pendulum effect. When most people are faced with a truth that shakes their foundation, and they accept it, they tend to distrust the whole foundation and struggle with it for a while. You will need to get over it. You seem already to be progressing towards that. Prayer and fasting as the ApostolicNativ user recommended is the best way to lift up your spiritual life and get a conviction without overreacting in the opposite direction.

I tithed for few decades believing it. However, I always found the tithing doctrine weak and unfounded. I actually went to my pastor to encourage him to present something better than that because I wanted to believe. He never did.

Then I began to get bother by things. The fact that poor churches were criticized for not supporting the pastor with tithes (can't afford tithing, really, but just doing their best). I was poor myself and I can tell you the "percentage is always affordable" thing is a myth. The fact that tithing of the gross is still not accurate (same income can have different tithes because of contractors vs employed, etc..), gifts tithing, etc... sounded to me more and more like legalistic. And also the fact that the New testament taught so much about giving to the poor members, and because of tithing, giving substantially to effectively help them was unaffordable. I personally wasn't able to help my parents at time because I couldn't afford it. That actually hurt me sometimes. Something was wrong in the system. But you know, they tell you you must have faith and keep tithing.

Then, one day in prayer I came to the realization that tithing was not a command of the Lord for the new church. Then I studied deeply the issue and got a better foundation why wasn't. During that time I struggled at times with trusting what I was taught all together. But my experiences with God, the Spirit of the Lord stopped me from going the wrong path. I don't think I struggled as much as you did, but very similar anyways.

I think this happens because of not having full conviction of what you believe, but instead an attitude of trusting and accepting without verifying it. That being said, I think we all go through that stage: you accept the teaching without much questioning because of the excitement, then you mature...

Regarding your ministry, remember that what pleases the Lord is that you win souls and you make disciples. Preaching from the pulpit is a mix of prophesying and making disciples by teaching to a multitude. However, in God's sight, the one-to-one making of disciples is very pleasing to him as well. If you look at it from that perspective, preaching from the pulpit to a congregation is really not that much more pleasing than doing to a few in God's eyes. You are still fulfilling his commandment and in the front-line. You can keep giving a 10% and think of it as your contribution to the local church. You can also tell your Pastor that you want to keep participating in outreach and discipleship but you can't teach about tithing because of your conscientious and would leave that to them.

Whatever you do, you can't stop making disciples. That's a commandment from the Lord. And you can't stop giving to the church and to the members in need. That's an expected repentance fruit. If the pastor is too radical about it, you may need to find another church of your faith. Getting people saved, whether they believe in tithing or not, is more important.

Just my experience. It can be different than yours, but I hope I could give you some encouragement.