Witch of Endor

[Monterrey]

You don't think Sammy was resurrected with Jesus? Just curious because that was the first resurrection chronologically.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Monterrey

You don't think Sammy was resurrected with Jesus? Just curious because that was the first resurrection chronologically.

Resurrected with Jesus?

Who teaches the OT saints were resurrected when Jesus was? Never heard that one before.

[votivesoul]

Originally Posted by Esaias

1 Samuel 28:11-12 KJV
Then said the woman, Whom shall I bring up unto thee? And he said, Bring me up Samuel. [12] And when the woman saw Samuel, she cried with a loud voice: and the woman spake to Saul, saying, Why hast thou deceived me? for thou art Saul.

Why is everybody assuming she was "shocked"? And "frightened" by the apparent arrival of Samuel? It just says she cried out with a loud voice and was scared ABOUT THE FACT THAT HER CLIENT WAS SAUL. Nothing about being spooked by a ghost. Her crying with a loud voice just means she yelled. Looks to me like she was more upset about having Saul for a client than having Samuel for a seance.

[votivesoul]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Anyways, I think most here in the thread have agreed it was a vision. Maybe not agreeing on the source or purpose of the vision, but a vision nonetheless. (Saul wasn't seeing anything, the witch was.)

Which means yes it WAS Samuel... in the vision. Meanwhile Sammy is dead and resting until the resurrection.

I don't think we can conclude that it was merely a vision.

1 Samuel 28:15-20 (ESV),

15 Then Samuel said to Saul, “Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?” Saul answered, “I am in great distress, for the Philistines are warring against me, and God has turned away from me and answers me no more, either by prophets or by dreams. Therefore I have summoned you to tell me what I shall do.” 16 And Samuel said, “Why then do you ask me, since the Lord has turned from you and become your enemy? 17 The Lord has done to you as he spoke by me, for the Lord has torn the kingdom out of your hand and given it to your neighbor, David. 18 Because you did not obey the voice of the Lord and did not carry out his fierce wrath against Amalek, therefore the Lord has done this thing to you this day. 19 Moreover, the Lord will give Israel also with you into the hand of the Philistines, and tomorrow you and your sons shall be with me. The Lord will give the army of Israel also into the hand of the Philistines.”

20 Then Saul fell at once full length on the ground, filled with fear because of the words of Samuel. And there was no strength in him, for he had eaten nothing all day and all night.

If this was merely a vision that the woman was having, it cannot adequately explain the above interaction between Saul and Samuel. It may have begun as some kind of visionary experience exclusive to the woman, but it certainly didn't end there.

It ends with a dialogue and a prophecy, far more than just a vision...

[coksiw]

Originally Posted by votivesoul

I don't think we can conclude that it was merely a vision.

1 Samuel 28:15-20 (ESV),



If this was merely a vision that the woman was having, it cannot adequately explain the above interaction between Saul and Samuel. It may have begun as some kind of visionary experience exclusive to the woman, but it certainly didn't end there.

It ends with a dialogue and a prophecy, far more than just a vision...

The fact as stated by the narrator is that he didn't see it. There is no change in that fact according to the text. Then the text has a twist as you noticed, in where Samuel starts the conversation. The greater is the one starting the conversation. The "how" that conversation happened is the question. The text doesn't say Saul "heard" his voice in any ways, but goes straight to "Samuel said". The narrator does not explain how that happens. I think the narrator assumes the reader knows, and specifically, that it is thru the medium. I don't think there is room to think otherwise.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by coksiw

The fact as stated by the narrator is that he didn't see it. There is no change in that fact according to the text. Then the text has a twist as you noticed, in where Samuel starts the conversation. The greater is the one starting the conversation. The "how" that conversation happened is the question. The text doesn't say Saul "heard" his voice in any ways, but goes straight to "Samuel said". The narrator does not explain how that happens. I think the narrator assumes the reader knows, and specifically, that it is thru the medium. I don't think there is room to think otherwise.

[Monterrey]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Resurrected with Jesus?

Who teaches the OT saints were resurrected when Jesus was? Never heard that one before.

Seriously? What does your Bible say in Matthew 27: 50-53?

How do you teach that, just wondering?

Who were those saints?

Definitely were Old Testament as the New was not in place yet because the day of Pentecost had not happened.

My question has always been... what happened to those saints who had experienced this resurrection?

How many of them were there? Definitely a lot because the Bible says MANY.

How do you teach this?

[Monterrey]

I see this resurrection as the fulfillment of Ezekiel's boneyard as God told Israel that they would know that He was the Lord when He brought them up out of their Graves.

[Monterrey]

Many in Pentecost desire the exact same results that they got on the day of Pentecost yet we never see those results replicated again in that manner, and for a reason. There can never be the same exact ingredients again. It was a one time event ushering in a New Covenant.

Think about it.

1. A guy that everyone says was the Messiah was just crucified.
2. At his crucifixion there was an eclipse AND an earthquake.
3. On the same day the veil in the temple was torn and it was exposed that your traditional religion was empty.
4. All the people show up in your main city who should be dead! People dressed in old fashioned clothes! Claiming to be....? David? Daniel? Samuel?
5. Then all these other people start claiming that the guy who was crucified is now alive also!

Wow! No wonder thousands and thousands flocked to this new thing!

Now I have seen many people get their Pentecostal experience... but never in the thousands in one day!

[Monterrey]

Many in Pentecost desire the exact same results that they got on the day of Pentecost yet we never see those results replicated again in that manner, and for a reason. There can never be the same exact ingredients again. It was a one time event ushering in a New Covenant.

Think about it.

1. A guy that everyone says was the Messiah was just crucified.
2. At his crucifixion there was an eclipse AND an earthquake.
3. On the same day the veil in the temple was torn and it was exposed that your traditional religion was empty.
4. All the people show up in your main city who should be dead! People dressed in old fashioned clothes! Claiming to be....? David? Daniel? Samuel?
5. Then all these other people start claiming that the guy who was crucified is now alive also!

Wow! No wonder thousands and thousands flocked to this new thing!

Now I have seen many people get their Pentecostal experience... but never in the thousands in one day!