Water Baptism.....Just What Is It For?

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

What are you saying??????????????????????????

I'm saying what I said: "There is no saving power in repentance or believing or in being dunked under the water." It is not what we do that saves us, it's what God did that saves us.

[Steve Epley]

Originally Posted by Chan

I'm saying what I said: "There is no saving power in repentance or believing or in being dunked under the water." It is not what we do that saves us, it's what God did that saves us.

That is odd Peter told the multitude to Save themselves??????????????? I understand what you are saying human endeavors without the work of God in redemption would save no one. However redemption only saves those who cooperate in accepting it on the terms of the Gospel.

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

That is odd Peter told the multitude to Save themselves??????????????? I understand what you are saying human endeavors without the work of God in redemption would save no one.

And Paul said that salvation is not "of yourselves" and that it is "the gift of God."

However redemption only saves those who cooperate in accepting it on the terms of the Gospel.

It is the superior that accepts the inferior: I can't believe you would suggest that sinful humans are somehow superior to God or to His gift of salvation. There is not even one passage of scripture that says we "accept" God or salvation but there are scriptures that refer to God accepting us. It has nothing whatsoever to do with our "cooperating." Jesus specifically said that no one can come to Him unless the Father draws him - that is not man "cooperating." Jesus said that all those whom the Father has given Him WILL come to Him. There is no passage anywhere in scripture that ever refers to anything resembling man having to "cooperate" with God with regard to the gospel (and, no, I don't mean passages that have "cooperate" in them). Again, Paul said "By grace are ye saved" (Ephesians 2:5). The scripture says "Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ" and not "We were dead in sins but then we cooperated with Christ and accepted His quickening of us."

But getting back to the subject of this thread, I agree with Praxeas' earlier post regarding the purpose of water baptism. I would also add that while I disagree with your notion that baptism itself has some sort of saving power, I also disagree with the various denominations that teach baptism is nothing more than a public confession or testimony of what Christ has done in one's life.

[Steve Epley]

Originally Posted by Chan

And Paul said that salvation is not "of yourselves" and that it is "the gift of God."

It is the superior that accepts the inferior: I can't believe you would suggest that sinful humans are somehow superior to God or to His gift of salvation. There is not even one passage of scripture that says we "accept" God or salvation but there are scriptures that refer to God accepting us. It has nothing whatsoever to do with our "cooperating." Jesus specifically said that no one can come to Him unless the Father draws him - that is not man "cooperating." Jesus said that all those whom the Father has given Him WILL come to Him. There is no passage anywhere in scripture that ever refers to anything resembling man having to "cooperate" with God with regard to the gospel (and, no, I don't mean passages that have "cooperate" in them). Again, Paul said "By grace are ye saved" (Ephesians 2:5). The scripture says "Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ" and not "We were dead in sins but then we cooperated with Christ and accepted His quickening of us."

We have the power to reject or accept it is called free will God is a gentleman salvation has been purchased for every man but man has to accep it if he is saved thus man has to cooperate. Cooperate is to OBEY!!!!!!!!!! NO passages on obeying the gospel???????? I did notice you did not touch the passage where Peter said Save yourselves???????????? Was he inspired or in error?

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

We have the power to reject or accept it is called free will God is a gentleman salvation has been purchased for every man but man has to accep it if he is saved thus man has to cooperate. Cooperate is to OBEY!!!!!!!!!! NO passages on obeying the gospel???????? I did notice you did not touch the passage where Peter said Save yourselves???????????? Was he inspired or in error?

We have the capacity to choose but are you so sure we have the right to choose? Again "accept" is what a superior does to an inferior and you make man superior to God by suggesting that man must "accept" God's gift. You make man superior to God by suggesting (as you did in your use of the word "cooperate") that man is the final arbiter of his own salvation and that God is subordinate to man in that process.

Peter's statement was "Save yourselves from this untoward generation," NOT "save yourselves from eternity in the lake of fire." Again, Paul said "By grace are ye saved...and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast." Paul's statement was in the context of salvation. To say that Peter's statement was in the context of salvation (being saved from eternity in the lake of fire, etc.) is to contradict what Paul said about salvation. Now, we KNOW that the Bible doesn't contradict itself; so, the only way to reconcile this is if we acknowledge that Peter wasn't warning people to save themselves in terms of what we understand to be salvation. If we could save ourselves (as you are suggesting), there would be no need for the Savior.

[Steve Epley]

Originally Posted by Chan

We have the capacity to choose but are you so sure we have the right to choose? Again "accept" is what a superior does to an inferior and you make man superior to God by suggesting that man must "accept" God's gift. You make man superior to God by suggesting (as you did in your use of the word "cooperate") that man is the final arbiter of his own salvation and that God is subordinate to man in that process.

Peter's statement was "Save yourselves from this untoward generation," NOT "save yourselves from eternity in the lake of fire." Again, Paul said "By grace are ye saved...and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast." Paul's statement was in the context of salvation. To say that Peter's statement was in the context of salvation (being saved from eternity in the lake of fire, etc.) is to contradict what Paul said about salvation. Now, we KNOW that the Bible doesn't contradict itself; so, the only way to reconcile this is if we acknowledge that Peter wasn't warning people to save themselves in terms of what we understand to be salvation. If we could save ourselves (as you are suggesting), there would be no need for the Savior.

I along with Peter am confused. And also Paul 1Tim.4:15

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

I along with Peter am confused. And also Paul 1Tim.4:15

You would do well to "Meditate upon these things; give thyself wholly to them; that thy profiting may appear to all" (1 Timothy 4:15).

[Steve Epley]

Originally Posted by Chan

You would do well to "Meditate upon these things; give thyself wholly to them; that thy profiting may appear to all" (1 Timothy 4:15).

I concede try verse 16???????????????????????

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

I concede try verse 16???????????????????????

The Greek word there has several meanings:

to save, keep safe and sound, to rescue from danger or destruction

1. one (from injury or peril)
   1. to save a suffering one (from perishing), i.e. one suffering from disease, to make well, heal, restore to health
   2. to preserve one who is in danger of destruction, to save or rescue
2. to save in the technical biblical sense
   1. negatively 1b
3. to deliver from the penalties of the Messianic judgment 1b
4. to save from the evils which obstruct the reception of the Messianic deliverance

According to the InterVarsity Press Commentary:

"One reward for dedication like this is progress. Progress in the faith (compare Phil 1:25) would close the mouths of Timothy's older critics. But more important, progress of this kind is evidence of a vital and deepening relationship with the Lord. If the leadership of a church pays diligent attention to personal spiritual priorities and sound worship principles, its ministry is bound to bear fruit.The Fruit of Effective Ministry (4:16).


Following a summary reminder that takes in all of 4:6-15 (Watch your life and your doctrine closely. Persevere in them), Paul describes the end result of the good minister's efforts in Christ as salvation: you will save both yourself and your hearers.

But isn't this rather shortsighted? Not at all. Salvation is indeed the goal, but it must be properly understood. In biblical parlance it signifies a process of development that begins with belief in Christ (conversion) and the gift of new life in the Spirit (regeneration) and will end (our glorification) with the return of Christ. In this life we experience the process of salvation as stages of growth in "Christlikeness," "putting on the new self" (Col 3:11), working out our salvation (Phil 2:12); and many things can impede growth. Essential to growth, however, is the ministry of God's Word in preaching and teaching in the church, from which we draw spiritual nourishment, as well as the modeling of godliness by the more mature for those younger in the faith. Important, too, for the salvation process (especially for the Christian leader) is faithfulness in carrying out the calling of God. Effective ministry is ministry in which the Word of God is applied to individual lives and to all situations in life."

The grace of God that saves is the very thing that shows us that we need to obey the Gospel and be water baptized in Jesus name!

1 Peter 4:17

17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?


Without the grace of God, we wouldn't know that we needed to be baptized!!!

Why did Peter command them to be baptized?? Acts 10:48

Why did Peter respond with Repent and Be Baptized to answer the question "What shall we do?"

Baptism is for several things, I'll enumerate later!!