For years I have heard the standard Bernardese on Jesus's two natures and I used to teach exactly the same thing. That is that Jesus, the man, would at times do things AS a man and at other times do things AS God.
Yet in every case we spoke of, it was still the man. For example It was those human legs that trend on the water and it was the human mouth that said to Peter he could come out there too. Yet at the same time we have made a clear distinction between God and humanity. How is it then we can say "As God He walked on water" when it is clear He was still a man?
No. This is wrong. Yes He was God in personal identity while in the form of a man. Yes His Divine nature was present and resident and even in ontological union with the human nature. But I believe the bible shows that when Jesus healed the sick and did miracles He was still acting AS MAN.
Consider that He was a MAN approved by those miracles Act 2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
That Jesus said the works HE did the Disciples would to do Joh 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
Why? He told them they needed FAITH to do these things. But when it comes to Jesus doing these things we are saying He was not a man with great faith doing things things but He was God...that seems contradictory if we are to be like Jesus. Jesus had a certain advantage then. He was not a man that had to overcome the flesh and have faith and give His will totally over to God in order to do those things if the common thinking is correct.
No, He came here and was our example. It was through the Humanity, as a man that Jesus said Luk 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised
There'd be no reason to expect that if we have faith like him, live like him and was submitted to the will of God like him that we can do the works that he did if the only reason he was able to do those things is because he was going back and forth from being God to being man. That makes no sense because he never stopped being a man. He never changed forms when he worked miracles. It was still those human hands, feet and voice.
I think it is both theological wrong to say "as man he did, but as God he did" and I think it is dynamically wrong to say that. In other words it leads to doctrinal error, almost a nestorian error that ultimately denies a true Human nature and a Kenosis or emptying of Himself (he had an advantage) and it lends us to believe ultimately that we can't really be like Jesus (other than the fact that he never sinned) in His humanity. In fact this would be the conclusion of the Divine Flesh theory too since we have to wait till the resurrection to attain such a status (which begs the question though, if His flesh was Divine why did he need to be changed after the resurrection?)
Anyways I see this as both a Theological issue and a dynamic faith issue.
Jesus, in his human form, was anointed of God to do the works and speak the words of God. The Son of God was not only anointed of God, the Father dwelled within Him, but He was God, the Word made flesh. And He was made in all things like unto his brethren, like us. The Son that was to be born was to be called the Mighty God, the Everlasting Father.... The Ruler who was to come out of Bethlehem is from everlasting....God was manifest in the flesh. These verses aren't telling us that Jesus, the Son of God, is a man and God in one human body but He is God become human. However God made us, He made Jesus. In the same way that God put our innerman within our human bodies we dwell in, He did the same when He conceived His only begotten Son.
I agree with you that it's wrong to say Jesus did or said this as a man and then Jesus said this or that as God. He was made in ALL THINGS like us. How can He be our mediator, our redeemer, the perfect sacrifice for our sins if He took advantage of his divine prerogatives? How can He be tempted like we are if he had the option of resisting that temptation through his own supernatural powers instead of relying on His God? And how could he truly relate to our weaknesses and sufferings and honestly tell us to be of good cheer because he overcame the world if he did not walk like we do? Even though Jesus was God manifest in flesh He had to rely on the word of God and the Spirit of God through communion with God in prayer for strength, for direction, for divine utterance, and for power to heal, deliver, etc.
For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps: 1 Peter 2:21
Jesus is our example, not because He is a man walking as God with all the personal knowledge and power of God, but because He is God walking as a man without all the personal knowledge and power of God (like kenosis) needing to rely on His God and His Father for all things.
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His banner over me is LOVE.... My soul followeth hard after thee....Love one another with a pure heart fervently. Jesus saith unto her, Said I not unto thee, that, if thou wouldest believe, thou shouldest see the glory of God?
To be a servant of God, it will cost us our total commitment to God, and God alone. His burden must be our burden... Sis Alvear
So you agree with her that emotion is what makes us human?
You also agree, as she said, "Having divine natures is what makes Him God..."
Just how many of those divine natures do YOU propose that Jesus had/has?
Do you also agree, as she said, "This doesn't mean he's part divinity..."
Please explain the "part" business according to her beliefs, since she HIT THE NAIL ON THE HEAD.
Did she HIT THE NAIL ON THE HEAD, when she said, " However, I don't believe being God was a nature of Jesus, as He is God.
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A PERSON is not part of a nature. A NATURE is PART of a person!!! Jesus is "PART" OF NOTHING!
The discussion is rapidly descending into silliness. A nature is PART of a person??? This would be a new discovery in the field of anthropology. Can you imagine a person having only a part of the nature of a person? It can't happen unless you can congure up the image of dear ol' Pagesus. In that case, he had a part of a nature...one part was that of a man the other part was that of a horse.
It is impossible to have part of the nature of a man and not have a man. If a man is not whole in his nature, he is not a whole man. Extract any portion of the nature of a man and you have NO MAN.
So you agree with her that emotion is what makes us human?
You also agree, as she said, "Having divine natures is what makes Him God..."
Just how many of those divine natures do YOU propose that Jesus had/has?
Do you also agree, as she said, "This doesn't mean he's part divinity..."
Please explain the "part" business according to her beliefs, since she HIT THE NAIL ON THE HEAD.
Did she HIT THE NAIL ON THE HEAD, when she said, " However, I don't believe being God was a nature of Jesus, as He is God.
The discussion is rapidly descending into silliness. A nature is PART of a person??? This would be a new discovery in the field of anthropology. Can you imagine a person having only a part of the nature of a person? It can't happen unless you can congure up the image of dear ol' Pagesus. In that case, he had a part of a nature...one part was that of a man the other part was that of a horse.
It is impossible to have part of the nature of a man and not have a man. If a man is not whole in his nature, he is not a whole man. Extract any portion of the nature of a man and you have NO MAN.
I think you are reading more into these posts than what is written. Having human natures or characteristics is what makes you human. For instance, having emotions is a nature of being human. We don't have part of the nature, but that nature is a part of us. Those natures coming together make us whole. This doesn't mean that we can separate our natures into making us part human, as it seems to be what you are reading into these posts.
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I've gone and done it now! I'm on Facebook!!!
So you don't not believe in the dual nature of Christ as most Oneness people teach? Most of them teach that there are only two natures. You say that there are three?
This is interesting.
God has many attributes but has only ONE nature. God is God solely attibutable to his nature. Man is man solely attributable to what is proper and singular to man and what is of man. The same is true of a horse or a duck. This also true of an apple or a rock.
Take away omnisence of God. He would not be God. Take away his Omnipresence and he would not be God. Apart from his Omnipotence, he would not be God. The nature of God is all of the above and much more besides....which also includes mercy and grace and much more besides. The whole of his attributes is his nature....not a part. God is not part anything having two natures.
I am not an expert on all of the theological terminology, but I think all this talk about nature is misguided. God is spirit. God breathed into Adam His Spirit. All humans are body, soul and spirit. The spirit of man (conscience) is part of God's nature in us. We also have the fallen nature of Adam (flesh). We have at least 2 natures in us. (Romans 8) Christ was human, but did not have the fallen nature of Adam. He did have the will of the flesh. "not my will, but Thine be done" Christ had 2 natures, human and spirit, just as we do, yet without sin. ie his human nature was not subject to sin or death. He was the new Adam.
I don't mean to be rude, but I'm not sure you know what the word "nature" means. On the one hand you say it's misguided...on the other hand you end up describing charactoristics of a human....that's what NATURE means. The word nature simply refers to the qualities that makes something or someone what they are.
In your example you describes some qualities that makes a human human....humans have spirit, they have a body....they have a soul. Those are qualities or attributes. That is part of the nature of man.
However it's wrong to say the spirit of a man is God's nature in us. The spirit of a man is NOT God. That's essentially what you are saying. When we are baptized in the Holy Ghost we still have ONE spirit that is ours, but we have HIS Spirit IN us. Just like when a demon possessed man has a spirit IN him...that demon is NOT the man. The man is and has his own body, soul and spirit and in the case of a demon possessed man, has another spirit WITH him.
With us we are body, soul and spirit. That is what man is. We use God's Spirit also WITH us, in unity with our body, soul and spirit.
__________________ Let it be understood that Apostolic Friends Forum is an Apostolic Forum.
Apostolic is defined on AFF as:
There is One God. This one God reveals Himself distinctly as Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
The Son is God himself in a human form or "God manifested in the flesh" (1Tim 3:16)
Every sinner must repent of their sins.
That Jesus name baptism is the only biblical mode of water baptism.
That the Holy Ghost is for today and is received by faith with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues.
The saint will go on to strive to live a holy life, pleasing to God.
Nature: the particular combination of qualities belonging to a person, animal, thing, or class by birth, origin, or constitution; native or inherent character: human nature.
The essential characteristics and qualities of a person or thing
Person: a self-conscious or rational being. 5.the actual self or individual personality of a human being: You ought not to generalize, but to consider the person you are dealing with.
Hypostasis Heb 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
When people discussing the godhead use these terms this is what they mean.
Person or Hypostasis is the individual "I" or "self"...the "ego".
Nature refers to the qualities or charactoristics that person has.
Being means exists and is often used to mean nature. IN that regards it simply means how one exists or has being and what qualities are inherit in that existence.
Thus if you (person) has a arm (nature) that is one of the qualities of your existence that makes you human.
It's not rocket science nor does have to be harder than it looks.
God is an individual. God is a self. God is a WHO. How God exists is as Spirit. Some of the many qualities of God are Omniscience. Omnipresence. Omnipotence. Love. Will. etc etc...you can see that we humans share SOME of the same nature as God does, but not in every way. This is in one way we were made in His image. He is Spirit, we are body, soul and spirit. He has will. We have will. He has mind. We have mind. He can love. We can love. etc etc etc
Person, self, who, I (I AM), individual, hypostasis....God is one.
Nature, what, how etc etc....God has one Divine nature.
Jesus, self, who, I AM....is one WHO (God) with two whats (Divine nature and Human nature).
There are NOT two or three persons in Oneness. There is One Divine person or WHO or I AM, who put on a human existence with all the qualities that makes one human, except for sin.
__________________ Let it be understood that Apostolic Friends Forum is an Apostolic Forum.
Apostolic is defined on AFF as:
There is One God. This one God reveals Himself distinctly as Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
The Son is God himself in a human form or "God manifested in the flesh" (1Tim 3:16)
Every sinner must repent of their sins.
That Jesus name baptism is the only biblical mode of water baptism.
That the Holy Ghost is for today and is received by faith with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues.
The saint will go on to strive to live a holy life, pleasing to God.
So you agree with her that emotion is what makes us human?
She never said that. She did not say that emotion alone is what makes us human. Emotion is only PART of human nature, amongst many other qualities.
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You also agree, as she said, "Having divine natures is what makes Him God..."
Just how many of those divine natures do YOU propose that Jesus had/has?
I would phrase it differently and say that the single "divine nature" has many qualities, and not say that they are divine "natures" (plural).
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Do you also agree, as she said, "This doesn't mean he's part divinity..."
Exactly. We went over that eons ago. The Son of God is is wholly God and wholly human. Not part of what a human is and part of what God is. It is not that He is part God and part man. "PART" does not even enter into the concept in that manner.
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Please explain the "part" business according to her beliefs, since she HIT THE NAIL ON THE HEAD.
You are not getting her point. When you can understand that we believe JESUS IS PART OF NOTHING, then we can relate to you. Until then, your definition of NATURE is something we are not referring to.
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The discussion is rapidly descending into silliness. A nature is PART of a person???
Yes, of course. Brother, your definition of NATURE and now I see "PART", is not what we are thinking about when we use those terms. The more you say these things, the further you depart from what we are actually saying.
When a NATURE IS PART OF A PERSON, we are saying that the person is integrally connected to the NATURE, and vice versa, or they are both not a person and non-existent. You are not using the term in that sense. So you are not getting our point. Without this NATURE, they are not a person. But the nature is not the person no more than emotion, which is PART of human nature, is a person.
Nature is simply the qualities and traits that make up what a being is. Human nature is simply the set of qualities that make a being HUMAN. If a being has all the same qualities, not just emotion, that belong to human nature, then that being is human. You are not using that definition for NATURE. So you are making statements that do not apply to our beliefs when you try to describe our beliefs.
A NATURE is what makes a person a certain sort of being. There are cats which have FELINE nature.
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This would be a new discovery in the field of anthropology. Can you imagine a person having only a part of the nature of a person?
This statement shows you are not following what we are saying, for if you were you would not make such a statement. We believe no such thing.
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It can't happen unless you can congure up the image of dear ol' Pagesus.
You mean "Pegasus".
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In that case, he had a part of a nature...one part was that of a man the other part was that of a horse.
It is impossible to have part of the nature of a man and not have a man.
Again, that terminology makes no sense. No one has PART of the nature of a man.
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If a man is not whole in his nature, he is not a whole man.
Exactly.
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Extract any portion of the nature of a man and you have NO MAN.
My soul followeth hard after thee....Love one another with a pure heart fervently. 
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