Ancient Monarchians and Trinitarians

Originally Posted by BobDylan

Hey guys, this is the first thread on AFF that I actually started!

And you did a wonderful job!!! congrats!!

Originally Posted by BobDylan

What "proof" have you cited? Because a catholic reposit declared that Noetus was a heretic? Again, I agree with the Catholic church on EVERYONE they have declared as heretics... NOT!!!!!

We can easily scrap history, and just get back to the book and see what the book says about the nature and numerical attributes of God, now couldn't we!!!!!

The reformation was all about getting back to the bible, and forgetting about what the Catholic's decreed. So let's get back to the bible!!!!! Forget noetus, forget Hypolytus, forget Justin....

Let's get back to the bible!!!!!

Bob, facts are facts and you know it. And that fact you are not willing to discuss is that Noetus taught something that you know isn't the truth, and it is a big problem for you. Instead of excepting it, you choose to ignore it.

[SDG]

Originally Posted by Believer

There is a lot that happen in history, some of which we'll never understand. I don't agree with all that the Catholic church has done. But that doesn’t change the fact that the only Church in recorded history is Trinitarian, not Oneness. History only shows us that there were sporadic list of people that believed that Jesus was the Father. One of these is Emmanuel Swedenborg, and I certain you don't want to use him as an example as David Bernard did ini his book "The Oneness of God."




Those such as Sabellius and Noetus did not teach the same Oneness theology as what is taught today. The problem I see, maybe you could shed some light here, if today’s Oneness teach that their doctrine is the true doctrine, then how come it doesn't match up with the teaches of the first modalist? which is true Sabellius or todays Oneness Doctrine?

They didn't tell you??? ... the "full" true doctrine just reappeared about 100 years ago.

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Was there Trinity before the 3rd century? Ignatius did not sound like he was teaching trinity. Could have been arian...for that matter we have Oneness that teach the Logos was with God as God's visible form or something, but not a second person...I don't see the Trinity in doctrine spelled out in those writtings anymore than one would not see Oneness spelled out

A.D. 180 Church apologist Theophilus, bishop of Antioch, first uses the term Trinity to describe God: In like manner also the three days which were before the luminaries, are types of the Trinity (triados) of God, and His Word, and His Wisdom. (Theophilius, To Autolycus 2.15)

Tertullian of Carthage A.D. 213 "As if in this way also one were no All, in that All are of One, by unity (that is) of substance; while the mystery of the dispensation is still guarded, which distributes the Unity into a Trinity, placing in their order the three Persons. (agaist Praxeas 2, in ANFm vol 3)

Both are before the 3rd century.

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

They didn't tell you??? ... the "full" true doctrine just reappeared about 100 years ago.

[BobDylan]

Originally Posted by Believer

There is a lot that happen in history, some of which we'll never understand. I don't agree with all that the Catholic church has done. But that doesn’t change the fact that the only Church in recorded history is Trinitarian, not Oneness.

What resource and recorded history are you alluding to? Can you include the writings and writers of trinitarians prior to the writings against Noetus and Praxeas? It is certain that Victor, Zephyrinus, and Callistus, who were successive Bishops of the churches in Rome from @ 190 to 225 AD or so were ALL monarchian (onenss). They wrote in favor of modalism. The fact that there was so MUCH writing AGAINST oneness, dynamic and modalistic monarchians, IS EVIDENCE of the huge influence of the monarchian church in history prior to Nicea and Constantinople.

Since you say the ONLY church in history are trinitarians, you must note that if all were trinitarians, there would have never been any "heretics". But the fact that there were "heretics" that opposed the CATHOLIC dogma, IS EVIDENCE of the existance of groups OTHER THAN trinitarian!!!!

Originally Posted by Believer

History only shows us that there were sporadic list of people that believed that Jesus was the Father.

"History only shows us..." Whose history? The Roman Catholic history? What about the Jewish historians? What about modern historians that examind the writings, movements, and motivations of writers in history? Have the ALL concluded that the only church was the Catholic church? There wasn't even a catholic church unitl circa 325 AD... and then it wasn't even officially trinitarian until about 381 AD.

Originally Posted by Believer

Those such as Sabellius and Noetus did not teach the same Oneness theology as what is taught today.

Actually, their theology was very similar to what is taught today. But the fact that there are different concepts of the mechanics of the incarnation, does not negate that all of these teachers, past and present, hold the absolute monarch (oneness) of God.

Originally Posted by Believer

The problem I see, maybe you could shed some light here, if today’s Oneness teach that their doctrine is the true doctrine, then how come it doesn't match up with the teaches of the first modalist? which is true Sabellius or todays Oneness Doctrine?

You can take three oneness teachers today, and they will not all view every concept exactly. There are fundamental tenets that all oneness believers hold, the most important of which is this:
1.) the absolute numerical oneness of God's eternal nature

The differences in Sebellius, Noetus, and earlier monarchians, and todays monarchians only revolved around the "mechanics" of the incarnation of that ONE GOD in human flesh. "to wit, great is the mystery of godliness, God was manifest in the flesh"... (1 Tim 3:16)

The "mystery" is not how "God exists in eternity as three persons yet is one" (as the Catholics would have you believe)....

The mystery IS how the one singular God of creation and all eternity, manifest himself in real human flesh.

Other than that, all monarchians hold to the basic belief that God is eternally numerically, substantially, and personally ONE!

[BobDylan]

Originally Posted by Believer

Bob, facts are facts and you know it. And that fact you are not willing to discuss is that Noetus taught something that you know isn't the truth, and it is a big problem for you. Instead of excepting it, you choose to ignore it.

Actually, from what I know about what Noetus taught, I HAVE NO PROBLEM with Noetus' doctrine!!!!

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

They didn't tell you??? ... the "full" true doctrine just reappeared about 100 years ago.

Oneness agree that there is one God and God is one. There is no concensus on how the one God became man just many theories. So why should we be surprised there is not a concensus on this mystery in the early church? 1 Tim 3:6..without controversy great is the mystery of godliness...

Beyond all question, the mystery of godliness is great:NIV

By common confession, great is the mystery of godliness: NASV

Originally Posted by BobDylan

Actually, from what I know about what Noetus taught, I HAVE NO PROBLEM with Noetus' doctrine!!!!

Do you also believe that he was Moses and Aaron was his brother? Shall I type out Hippolytus' refutation against Noetus?

[SDG]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

Oneness agree that there is one God and God is one. There is no concensus on how the one God became man just many theories. So why should we be surprised there is not a concensus on this mystery in the early church? 1 Tim 3:6..without controversy great is the mystery of godliness...

Beyond all question, the mystery of godliness is great:NIV

By common confession, great is the mystery of godliness: NASV

Are you suggesting even if their Godhead theory or other doctrinal theories are heretical they are still Oneness brethren?.. as long as the ends justify the means then it's okay? ....

Let's not forget that demons, Muslims and even *gasp* Trinitarians believe God is one ..