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Deep Waters 'Deep Calleth Unto Deep ' -The place to go for Ministry discussions. Please keep it civil. Remember to discuss the issues, not each other.


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  #41  
Old 03-02-2007, 07:52 PM
mizpeh mizpeh is offline
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Originally Posted by samp View Post
What does that mean, eternal son? What do you believe that they feel is wrong?
Nicene Creed
(fourth century)

We believe in one God, the Father, the Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all that is, seen and unseen.

We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father, God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, of one Being with the Father. Through him all things were made. For us and for our salvation he came down from heaven: by the power of the Holy Spirit he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary, and was made man. For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate; he suffered death and was buried. On the third day he rose again in accordance with the Scriptures; he ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father. He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead, and his kingdom will have no end.

We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, who proceeds from the Father. With the Father and the Son he is worshiped and glorified. He has spoken through the Prophets. We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church. We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins. We look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.

Trinitarians believe the Son of God existed as the Son (second person of the Trinity) prior to his birth in Bethlehem. OP's believe Jesus is the Son of God because He was conceived of the Holy Spirit in the womb of the virgin, Mary. And the Holy Spirit is God not an agent of God. Luke 1:35.
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  #42  
Old 03-02-2007, 07:59 PM
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Sam Sam is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mizpeh View Post
I don't think the Bible states that the Samaritans spoke in tongues when the apostles laid hands on them and they received the Holy Spirit. But it was obvious that something happened because Simon understood they were filled with the Spirit by some outward manifestation.
...
Simon had seen "...miracles... unclean spirits crying with a loud voice came out of many that were demonized...many taken with palsies and that were lame were healed...there was great joy..." Acts 8:6-8. Simon had seen all that when those folks were saved, healed, delivered but he didn't offer money for it. Then he "saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given" (Acts 8:18) and whatever he saw, he wanted that power more than he had wanted power to perform the acts he had seen before. When he offered money to buy the gift of ministering the Holy Ghost Baptism, Peter said, "To hell with your money! and you along with it, because you thought you could buy the gift of God with money. You have no part or share in this utterance or speaking" (Acts 8:20-21).
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  #43  
Old 03-02-2007, 08:43 PM
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Originally Posted by mizpeh View Post
Please, where can I find this teaching in the Bible?
I think most folks believe that the followers of Jesus were saved. He appeared to over 500 believers after his resurrection. Paul still referred to them as "brethren" twenty-five years later when he wrote the letters we call 1 Corinthians in our NT (1 Cor 15:6). Jesus commissioned His disciples to preach the Gospel but told them to wait in Jerusalem until they were empowered by the Holy Spirit. He compared this empowerment to a baptism similar to the water baptism they had experienced either under John or under His ministry. About 120 of them were filled with or baptized in the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:4).

On the day of Pentecost in response to Peter's preaching about 3000 folks received Jesus and were baptized (Acts 2:41).

In Acts 8 the folks in Samaria believed the message of Philip and were baptized in water. Later the Apostles John and Peter laid hands on them and ministered the HGB (Holy Ghost Baptism) to these believers.

In Acts 8, Philip preached to an Ethiopian Eunuch who then asked to be baptised in water. Philip made sure that he was a believer before he agreed to baptize him. He said, "If you believe with all your heart you may (be baptized)" The Eunuch said, "I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God." The record continues by saying that he gave orders that the chariot stop, then both Philip and the Eunuch went down into the water "and he baptized him, and when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord fell upon the Eunuch and the angel of the Lord snatched Philip away." Acts 8:35-39.

In Acts 9, Saul was on his way to Damascus to persecute the saints. Jesus appeared to him and Saul hit the ground. When he asked, Who are you, Lord?" the Lord (YHWH) said "I am Jesus." Saul believed in the resurrection and confessed Him as Lord. He said, "Lord, what do you want me to do?" Three days after this conversion experience, a disciple name Ananias came in to him and said, "Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus who appeared to you on the road as you came has sent me that you might receive your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit." Acts 9:1-18. Afterwards, Saul was baptized in water.

In Acts 10 (approximately A.D. 38) we read about Peter preaching to several Gentiles. As Peter preached the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus, those Gentiles believed and as a result of their belief/conversion the Holy Spirit fell upon them (Acts 10:37-48). Peter then commanded water baptism. The experience that happened to Cornelius and his household is referred to by Peter as "the same gift as He (God) gave us" (Acts 11:17) and also as a baptism in the Spirit (Acts 11:16). The Jewish brethren rejoiced because the Gentiles had received life through their repentance (Acts 11:18) . About 11 years later, Peter told about that incident and said that God had purified the hearts of the Gentiles by faith (Acts 15:8-9).

In Acts 19:1-6, approximately 23 years after Pentecost Paul found disciples in Ephesus who did not know about the NT message. He preached Jesus to them. As a result of their conversion/salvation/regeneration experience they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Then Paul laid his hands on them and ministered the HGB. It is recorded that those 12 or so folks spoke with tongues and prophesied when the Holy Spirit came upon them. We don't know if all of them spoke with tongues and prophesied or if some spoke with tongues and some prophesied.

These are the standard places where we Apostolics/Pentecostals/Charismatics go to illustrate the HGB. In each case it seems (at least to me) that there is a work of God in the hearts of the people (some would call it salvation or regeneration or conversion) before the HGB experience. There are other cases such as in Philippi (approximately summer of A.D. 50) where it is recorded that God opened a person's heart and she and her household were baptized (Acts 16:14-15) and where the jailer and his family believe (Acts 16:31-34) and were baptized. There is no record as to whether these folks later received the HGB or whether they did not. In Corinth (fall of A.D. 51) it says that many of them heard, believed, and were baptized (Acts 18:8, 1 Cor 1:11-17).

I'm not saying there is no such experience as a baptism in the Holy Spirit, nor am I saying that speaking with tongues is not associated with that HGB. All I'm saying is that (in my opinion) there was a conversion or salvation experience and it was followed by a water baptism experience and a HGB experience. (and thusly they fulfilled Acts 2;38)
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  #44  
Old 03-03-2007, 05:07 AM
mizpeh mizpeh is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Felicity View Post
I explain this by the fact there are different operations of the Spirit of God. One Spirit but different operations of the Spirit. He moves in and on us in a whole number of ways and not all at the same time..

He draws us.

He convicts us.

He forgives us.

He regenerates us.

He fills us.

He heals us

He chastises us.

He anoints us.

He calls us.

He leads us.

He teaches us.

He molds us.

He quickens us.

He comforts us

Encourages us.

Strengthens us.

Baptizes us.

Etc.

Thanks Felicity, for sure the Spirit of God does all these things, but I'm don't think this answered my question.
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  #45  
Old 03-03-2007, 05:11 AM
mizpeh mizpeh is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam View Post
"To hell with your money! and you along with it, because you thought you could buy the gift of God with money. You have no part or share in this utterance or speaking" (Acts 8:20-21).
Sam, what translation are you using? I had to look in the greek to find "logos" for the word "matter" which is used in the KJV. Thanks for bringing that out.

Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God.
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  #46  
Old 03-03-2007, 08:16 AM
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Falla39 Falla39 is offline
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The Initial Physical Evidence

Quote:
Originally Posted by freeatlast View Post
When the assumption is that ALL will aLWAYS speak in tongues as the Samaritans and the household of Cornelius did, the ASSUPTION is indeed a false one.
Bro. FreeAtLast,

Do all natural babies cry at birth! What does that cry tell you!

This baby is alive. It is not still-born! Babies may be born but that

doesn't mean they are alive. If there is no cry, no certain sound,

that silence is speaking. The Spirit giveth LIFE!! The sound of LIFE!

This is just some thoughts from where I stand!

Blessings, Brother, In Jesus Name!

Falla39
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  #47  
Old 03-03-2007, 09:10 AM
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freeatlast freeatlast is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Falla39 View Post
Bro. FreeAtLast,

Do all natural babies cry at birth! What does that cry tell you!

This baby is alive. It is not still-born! Babies may be born but that

doesn't mean they are alive. If there is no cry, no certain sound,

that silence is speaking. The Spirit giveth LIFE!! The sound of LIFE!

This is just some thoughts from where I stand!

Blessings, Brother, In Jesus Name!

Falla39
Nice analogy Sis. Falla...but nice analogies do not a doctrine make.
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  #48  
Old 03-03-2007, 09:34 AM
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Felicity Felicity is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mizpeh View Post
Thanks Felicity, for sure the Spirit of God does all these things, but I'm don't think this answered my question.
Yes, He does. You apparently edited your question after I answered the original one.
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  #49  
Old 03-03-2007, 09:55 AM
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Falla39 Falla39 is offline
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The Initial Physical Evidence

Quote:
Originally Posted by freeatlast View Post
Nice analogy Sis. Falla...but nice analogies do not a doctrine make.
Bro, FreeAtLast,

And what doctrine (teaching) would that be?

Blessings,

Falla39
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  #50  
Old 03-03-2007, 11:08 AM
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freeatlast freeatlast is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Falla39 View Post
Bro, FreeAtLast,

And what doctrine (teaching) would that be?

Blessings,

Falla39
The "doctrine" that all but us tongue talkers are lost.

That if you have not talked the talk, you have not begun the walk.
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