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  #491  
Old 11-22-2017, 11:12 AM
n david n david is offline
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Re: Pre trib rapture teaching is heresy

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Originally Posted by Esaias View Post
I don't "condemn (anyone) to hell", Snowflake. I just state what the Scriptures state.
Wrong. You add your personal opinion, claim they're heretics and condemn them to hell. Stop with this innocent act, as though you can't help what you post. The Bible doesn't condemn people to hell for believing in pre-trib or mid-trib. It takes you creating several posts, trying to explain what you believe various words mean, based on your opinion - and that opinion is that pre-trib and mid-trib believers are condemned to hell. So again, it's you, not the Bible.

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Originally Posted by Esaias View Post
And, yes, I've been booted from churches before for publicly exposing doctrinal error and its consequences. I've also had my share of conversations with ministers concerning the consequences of heretical doctrines. It's been only a few times, as I generally don't fellowship with heretics if I can help it. And my conversations with them have sometimes been - LITERALLY - with tears streaming down my face as I pleaded with them to believe the Scriptures and let go of man made traditions.
If you say so.

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Originally Posted by Esaias View Post
Aren't you a music director or something? That might explain your weird reactions to various things.
I have been a worship leader, music director, youth pastor and pastoral assistant at various times throughout the years. I haven't been in any role or position for the past 4 years.
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  #492  
Old 11-22-2017, 11:33 AM
Originalist Originalist is offline
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Re: Pre trib rapture teaching is heresy

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Originally Posted by Sean View Post
Better than thinking that the end of the world is found in Chapter 1(post tribbers read the book backwards)....LOL
It is. Chapter 6 of Revelation is an overview, just as Genesis 1 is an overview of creation with more details coming in later chapters of Genesis. If you insist that the events in Revelation 6 are at the beginning of the Trib, then there would not be anything left for the Anti-Christ to rule.
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  #493  
Old 11-22-2017, 11:46 AM
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Esaias Esaias is offline
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Re: Pre trib rapture teaching is heresy

These people are insane:

"The sequence of events that is pictured in the book of Revelation clearly places both the Seal Judgments and the Trumpet Judgments in the first half of the 70th Week of Daniel. And the Bowl Judgments are clearly contained within Daniel’s 70th Week, near its end."

http://christinprophecy.org/articles...wrath-rapture/
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  #494  
Old 11-22-2017, 11:49 AM
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Re: Pre trib rapture teaching is heresy

More insanity:

"The first reason we believe the Rapture takes place before the Tribulation is because it’s called the Blessed Hope in Titus 2:13.

. . . looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,

In 1 Thess. 4:18 the Apostle Paul writes this regarding the imminence of the Rapture . . .

Therefore comfort one another with these words.

If the Rapture doesn’t occur until the middle or end of the Tribulation, where’s the comfort in that?"

http://www.calvaryoxnard.org/2010/re...lation-rapture
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  #495  
Old 11-22-2017, 11:50 AM
Originalist Originalist is offline
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Re: Pre trib rapture teaching is heresy

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Originally Posted by Esaias View Post
These people are insane:

"The sequence of events that is pictured in the book of Revelation clearly places both the Seal Judgments and the Trumpet Judgments in the first half of the 70th Week of Daniel. And the Bowl Judgments are clearly contained within Daniel’s 70th Week, near its end."

http://christinprophecy.org/articles...wrath-rapture/
Exactly. There wouldn't be a functioning society for the Anti-Christ to rule after the seals.
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  #496  
Old 11-22-2017, 12:01 PM
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Amanah Amanah is offline
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Re: Pre trib rapture teaching is heresy

Immediately After the Tribulation

Mathew 24:29-31 describes what happens after the Great Tribulation: “Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.”



You cannot read Matthew chapter 24 without concluding that Jesus Christ placed the rapture immediately after the tribulation of those days. For those who believe in a rapture that comes before the tribulation, we should look at scriptures that contain the word “tribulation.” The New Testament uses the term “tribulation” 22 times. If the rapture happens before the tribulation, shouldn’t one of those 22 passages teach us something about the rapture happening before the tribulation? The answer is, out of all 22 instances, there is no clear verse which says that the rapture happens before the tribulation. There is, however, a very clear verse which says that it happens after the tribulation. Matthew 24: 29 says, “Immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days…”



The Great Tribulation

Some would argue that although all Christians go through some tribulation, there is yet a “great tribulation” ahead which true believers will not have to endure. The phrase “great tribulation” appears first in Matthew 24:21, “For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.” Here the verse seems to be talking about what will happen to not only those who live in Judea, but also to the world at large, because “…except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved” Whatever the case, this “great tribulation” is also prior to the return of Christ and the rapture, because Matthew 24: 29-31 goes on to describe the immediate gathering of the elect.

The other appearance of the phrase “great tribulation” occurs in the seventh chapter of Revelation. John sees a great multitude of white-robed people praising God around the throne and is told, “These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.” (Revelation 7:14) They are not removed from tribulation. Rather, these believers have been protected. They have endured “the great tribulation” and have now come out of it rejoicing. Moreover, it is apparent that all of this happens prior to the return of Christ, which is not actually depicted until Revelation chapter 19.



The First Resurrection

The term “first resurrection” is found in only one passage in the New Testament, Revelation 20:4-6: “And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.”

Though not explicitly called “the first resurrection” in these passages, here are two other passages that speak of the event we refer to as the rapture:



Caught Up Together

But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Wherefore comfort one another with these words. (1 Thessalonians 4:13-18)



In the Twinkling of an Eye

Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. (1 Corinthians 15:51-54)



The Timing

Regarding the timing of these events, 1 Thessalonians 4 says that the rapture will happen at “the coming of the Lord.”

1 Corinthians 15:52 says that this will happen at “the last trump.”

1 Corinthians 15:20-23 teaches that Christ is the first fruits of the resurrection…then afterward they that are His at His coming. The scriptures do not teach two comings. There will be one changing from mortal to immortal. It happens at the first resurrection as described in Revelation 20:4-6.

By reading Matthew 24:22-31 we know that the elect will be present until the time that Jesus sends his angels to gather them together unto Him (the rapture). The terms “elect” and “election” are used numerous times in the New Testament in reference to the Church. According to 1 Peter 1:2, the elect have the operation of the Holy Spirit in their lives. Furthermore, Jesus promised in John 14:16 that the Comforter (the Holy Ghost) would abide in believers forever. 2 Thessalonians 2:6-8 speaks of an entity that holds back the revealing of the Antichrist. Some people teach that the thing that “now letteth (restraineth)” is the presence of the Holy Spirit in the world. There is nothing in this passage that supports such an interpretation. The clue to the correct identity of this entity appears to be found in verse 6, “that he might be revealed in his time.” The thing that restrains the revealing of the Antichrist is God’s very own timeline. Just as Jesus, the true Christ, was not revealed until “the fullness of time was come” (Galatians 4:4), the false Christ, the man of sin, will not be revealed until God’s timeline dictates it.





https://www.endtime.com/the-rapture/
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  #497  
Old 11-22-2017, 12:03 PM
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Esaias Esaias is offline
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Re: Pre trib rapture teaching is heresy

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Originally Posted by Originalist View Post
Exactly. There wouldn't be a functioning society for the Anti-Christ to rule after the seals.
Notice the language: "Revelation CLEARLY shows..." etc.

I must have missed the verses in Revelation, or in Daniel, that "clearly show" which parts of the so-called 70th week of Daniel belong to which seals, trumpets, and bowls.
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  #498  
Old 11-22-2017, 12:04 PM
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Re: Pre trib rapture teaching is heresy

it seems there is a movement in the Apostolic Church to a belief in Post Trib Rapture.
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  #499  
Old 11-22-2017, 12:18 PM
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Esaias Esaias is offline
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Re: Pre trib rapture teaching is heresy

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it seems there is a movement in the Apostolic Church to a belief in Post Trib Rapture.
Good. Then we can work on their futurism.
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  #500  
Old 11-22-2017, 12:20 PM
Originalist Originalist is offline
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Re: Pre trib rapture teaching is heresy

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Originally Posted by Amanah View Post
it seems there is a movement in the Apostolic Church to a belief in Post Trib Rapture.
From 1993-2010 I was a member of a particular UPC. In 2007, I happily witnessed the pastor announce to the congregation that he had renounced the pre-trib doctrine after further prayer and study. He is solidly post-trib.
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