Apostoic worship??

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Just for clarity, what should we be seeing them do so that we know that they are worshipping?

On this thread, I have twice posted a litany of Biblical examples of acts of worship. It is also in a link to a PDF that can be found in my signature line.

My main concern is the idea that worship is judged by music and how much we like the music, and the corresponding idea that worship can be measured by how much production goes into the "event". That in turns leads people and churches to attempt to structure "worship" around an ever increasingly complex production: mood lighting, fog machines, music specifically designed to create certain moods, etc. All focused on crafting an experience for the audience.

The whole paradigm is unbiblical and carnal from start to finish. It has nothing to do with a particular song or genre of music.

Also, "contemplative prayer" etc and "soaking" as promoted by those "ministries" devoted to such things is not Biblical or Pentecostal.

I am as Pentecostal as it gets. And I think a lot of what you have supported and promoted in this thread is definitely NOT Pentecostal nor is it analogous to traditional Pentecostal experiences. Which is why MOST traditional Pentecostals (both Oneness and trinitarian) want nothing to do with charismatic "soaking" or "contemplative prayer" and related practices.

I thought I had explained it pretty clearly multiple times.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord

I've read through part of this drama thread, not all. I've seen enough to know it is the typical go-round... and I too wonder what it is exactly that makes the Holy Ghost work in a person's heart through the music, is the music, the song, the person singing it, the atmosphere, the people??? A combination of all of the above...

Yet when someone sings How Great Thou Art or Amazing Grace or Down From His Glory... how can you not worship the Creator, our Lord?

Myself, I am SO SICK AND TIRED of all the Jesus boyfriend love songs, it makes me gag almost to hear them. And those "Jesus on the mainline" kind of songs from an endless Pentecostal song service will get to you after a while too.

I think that we've got to focus our hearts on the Lord himself, who He is, and not just sing about how he makes us "feel".

To everything there is a season. I love old hymns. For me, they are timeless. But, I know others who fall asleep, become board out of their minds, and even feel out of touch if that's all that is accompanying worship. The "Jesus boyfriend love songs" are nice at times, but too much of it and I'll start wanting to hear How Great Thou Art and Great Is Thy Faithfulness after a while. Many might find it odd, but Amazing Grace has been worn out for me. Once I hear those familiar chords, I think, "Oh boy, here we go again." lol I can handle the "Jesus On the Main Line" stuff from time to time... especially if it is done with some gravely soulish voice.

I see music as a tool. It opens the soul and strikes a tone that brings the emotions to a place wherein listeners are in one accord emotionally. Lyrics help to focus the mind of everyone present on the subject. Being a tool, it can be used for good or for evil. It can be used to entertain, to manipulate, or to aid in worship. It's used in cinema, in advertising, in quacky cults, and religions. Music can effect behavior. Advertisers have learned that certain styles of music, and even certain songs that left the soul to a specific emotional place can boost sales. A local convenience store that was prone to being robbed and having seedy characters hanging out in front started playing classical music outside the front of the building. Interestingly the seedy characters became scarce and the number of robberies and attempted robberies dropped. I read somewhere years ago that a study played heavy metal for a group of mice. Those mice reacted with increased anxiety and violent behavior increased. They played classical music and they became more calm. I heard of a study that stated that if one plays classical music while a woman is pregnant, it will stimulate areas of the brain during development that can lead to fast development of cognitive behaviors.

And so, music itself is a tool. It is neither inherently good or bad. What makes a given style of music good or bad is it's intended purpose. Is it intended to manipulate or to assist? Is it used to manipulate or genuinely inspire? Is it used to manipulate or to truly motivate? For example, we read in II Chronicles 20:21 the singers and the musicians were sent marching forth out ahead of the army before battle. Try to picture it with me...

2 Chronicles 20:20-22 King James Version (KJV)
20 And they rose early in the morning, and went forth into the wilderness of Tekoa: and as they went forth, Jehoshaphat stood and said, Hear me, O Judah, and ye inhabitants of Jerusalem; Believe in the Lord your God, so shall ye be established; believe his prophets, so shall ye prosper.
21 And when he had consulted with the people, he appointed singers unto the Lord, and that should praise the beauty of holiness, as they went out before the army, and to say, Praise the Lord; for his mercy endureth for ever.
22 And when they began to sing and to praise, the Lord set ambushments against the children of Ammon, Moab, and mount Seir, which were come against Judah; and they were smitten.

I believe that the music must have been such that it not only focused the mind of those present on praising God for His eternal mercies, but it was probably of a style and tempo that made the average Israelite feel 10 feet tall and bulletproof. If that were so, it wouldn't be a bad thing because that was exactly what God desired of them, for He desired to give them the victory over their enemies.

If a worship service has songs that open the soul up to set an emotional expectancy or tone for deliverance, healing, worship, praise, love and adoration, spiritual war, etc. in accordance to God's will... it is used justly. However, if it is used to inspire people to a place of devotion just so the minister can manipulate the people to give more money, it is used unjustly. The music isn't the problem...it is how it is used.

Me personally, I'd rather meet in a small gathering, sing "Great Is Thy Faithfulness" a Capella, and worship the Lord more privately and intimately than meet with a large crowd of what feels like a staged production or concert. But that's just me. Some might feel just the opposite and that's okay.

Music and song isn't good nor evil. What makes it good or evil is how it is used.

That's just my opinion.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Esaias

On this thread, I have twice posted a litany of Biblical examples of acts of worship. It is also in a link to a PDF that can be found in my signature line.

Thank you for providing the link. I've read through it and it's good stuff. One thing stuck with me as I read it:

Singing:
Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord. (Colossians 3:16)
Serve the LORD with gladness: come before his presence with singing. (Psalm
100:2)

Here Paul speaks of:

Psalms
Hymns
Spiritual songs

This leaves me thinking that there's clearly more than one style and approach to musical worship and singing.

My main concern is the idea that worship is judged by music and how much we like the music, and the corresponding idea that worship can be measured by how much production goes into the "event". That in turns leads people and churches to attempt to structure "worship" around an ever increasingly complex production: mood lighting, fog machines, music specifically designed to create certain moods, etc. All focused on crafting an experience for the audience.

I agree with you quite a bit here. I don't see anything in Scripture about mood lighting or fog machines. I do believe that music, by its very nature, generates various moods and emotions. I don't see how this can be separated from music. Perhaps you can help me understand how it can be done. In my understanding, God ordained the use of music and song to be used as a tool when it comes to worship. Music isn't worship. However, music can be used as an aid to worship. Music can help focus the minds and emotions of the individuals present, bringing a greater corporate unity in worship.

I believe that the soul is the seat of emotion, will, and reason. I see my mind as just a single part of my nature. My brain is a tool with which I can process information. The mind provides a semi-emotional context for that information based on personal experiences, desires, etc. If I feel in my spirit that my mind isn't in the right place, I see nothing wrong with singing some spiritual songs, or playing some spiritual songs to bring my mind into greater harmony with my spirit, my inner man. It's a tool, knowing how to use it, manipulate it, clean it, reconstruct it, conform it, are challenges of the disciplined. Music can be an aid in some of these areas.

The whole paradigm is unbiblical and carnal from start to finish. It has nothing to do with a particular song or genre of music.

I see what you're saying. Much of it is unbiblical. But I don't think the entire paradigm is unbiblical. The purpose of music is to still and focus the mind and emotions that we might offer up praise, worship, and adoration in a more focused and unified manner.

Also, "contemplative prayer" etc and "soaking" as promoted by those "ministries" devoted to such things is not Biblical or Pentecostal.

I am as Pentecostal as it gets. And I think a lot of what you have supported and promoted in this thread is definitely NOT Pentecostal nor is it analogous to traditional Pentecostal experiences. Which is why MOST traditional Pentecostals (both Oneness and trinitarian) want nothing to do with charismatic "soaking" or "contemplative prayer" and related practices.

I thought I had explained it pretty clearly multiple times.

I'm sure you did explain it well. It's not you. It's most likely me. I'm reading what you're saying, but it doesn't resonate with my spiritual experience.

At Apostolic Lighthouse Church in Dayton Ohio they used to have family prayer on Tuesday nights. There was no "preaching". The doors were open and the lights in the sanctuary were dimmed. You were free to come in and find a seat on a pew, lay down in a pew, get down on your knees between the pews, lay prostrate between the pews, keel at the altar, or even lay prostrate before the altar. Whatever was comfortable for you or better expressed how you were feeling the Lord lead you. Nobody was going to beat anyone up if they felt more comfortable laying down in a pew as they prayed. For some, laying down eased tension and back pain from sitting all day at a desk. People were permitted to pray silently or to pray openly. One could pray in English or in tongues. One could even sing if they so desired, or even sing in tongues. It was only asked that one not be too loud or disruptive in a manner that drew attention from the Lord to themselves. One was free to walk the isles as they prayed. One was permitted to approach others and pray for them, even laying hands, if they felt led to do so. There were times wherein they played soft instrumental hymns. The muffled sound of prayers, groaning, tongues, and weeping, could be heard silently rising from the pews throughout the hour. It was your time with God to seek him as you felt led. You were encouraged to come even if you didn't feel like you needed prayer or to pray. Even if all you did was just to "bask in the presence of the LORD", you were encouraged to come. It was a time for healing, meditation, and prayer. It started at around 6pm and ended at around 7pm. At the end of the prayer service they'd fade the music and begin raising the lights. People would often stand and begin clapping and praising more exuberantly at this time. Many tear stained faces could be seen looking up with hands raised towards Heaven. The pastor would take the platform and join in the praise. He'd take the mic and guide us into more focused corporate prayer if someone was sick or in need. He'd share whatever thoughts the LORD had put on his mind during prayer. At times, there might even be tongues and interpretation. He'd welcome prayer requests and we'd take a moment to pray together for those requests. Any updates or church announcements were made. Then he'd close with a closing prayer. Most then prepared to go home, but those of us in the choir made our way to the platform because choir practice was about to start at 7:30. We'd have choir practice until between 8pm and 8:30pm (for special services we'd sometimes stay until 9pm) and then we closed in prayer and headed home.

That was Tuesday nights at the Apostolic Lighthouse. It was like that from the 1980's until well after the year 2007, which was when I left. All of this was long before the "soaking prayer" movement. And Pastor Shearer spoke of prayer meetings like these going all the way back to his childhood (which was like the mid to late 1920's and 30's).

Was what we were doing "soaking prayer"? I know we sure felt soaked in the Holy Ghost afterwards.

After learning about soaking prayer and experiencing it, the only difference I found was that it is a little more structured to suit distinct needs like healing, recovery, removing anxiety, faith building, etc.. And soaking prayer can be practiced in the privacy of one's home. (But then again, so can any form of prayer.)

So, from my perspective and experience, I've essentially been doing what they're calling "soaking prayer" since at least the mid 1980's until now. As a result, my experience in Pentecost makes all the statements you're making about it sound way out in left field to me.

[Aquila]

I remember Pastor Shearer talking about the "sweet aroma of Jesus" that saturated those who chose to spend time with God in prayer and meditation. Man, just talking about those prayer services makes me wish more Apostolic churches held those kinds of services today.

Pastor Shearer would sometimes tell us that our attendance on Sunday morning showed how popular the church was, our attendance on Sunday night showed how popular the preaching was, and our attendance on Bible study nights showed how popular the teaching was. But our attendance for Tuesday night prayer meetings showed how popular Jesus is.

[Aquila]

Correction:

Originally Posted by Aquila

I've looked at the Soaking Prayer thing, and as I said, Pentecostals have been doing this for generations. We just called it praise and worship. I think the Charismatics just labeled it "Soaking Prayer" for marketing purposes. lol

This post was meant to read:

I've looked at the Soaking Prayer thing, and as I said, Pentecostals have been doing this for generations. We just called it a prayer meeting. I think the Charismatics just labeled it "Soaking Prayer" for marketing purposes. lol

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Thank you for providing the link. I've read through it and it's good stuff. One thing stuck with me as I read it:

Singing:
Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord. (Colossians 3:16)
Serve the LORD with gladness: come before his presence with singing. (Psalm
100:2)

...
Music isn't worship. However, music can be used as an aid to worship. Music can help focus the minds and emotions of the individuals present, bringing a greater corporate unity in worship.

According to the Bible, the purpose of singing in church is for the purpose of teaching and admonishing one another. There is no mention of using music as a tool to generate or "focus" the emotions or feelings.

Does music affect the feelings? Of course. Sing Amazing Grace to its famous melody ("New Britain") and then sing it to the melody of Gilligan's Island. Obviously, a different effect is achieved.

BUT!

Paul did not speak of MUSIC, but of SINGING. This means the PRIMARY element is the singing. And the purpose is to teach (ie to transmit doctrine, Biblical truth). Now, one cannot sing without a melody of some sort, so music (melody, harmony, rhythm, etc) is necessary of course. But the musical score is only a tool to enable the singing. In a lot of contemporary worship music, the melody takes precedence.

One of the videos posted here is of a musician at IHOP. I read an interview he gave in which he stated he creates his melodies first, and then writes the lyrics to them. This indicates that his focus is on the music itself (hence one of his songs is filled up with verbal "doo dahs" without any actual words, thus without intellectual content). I'm not saying its wrong to have a melody and find words to go with it, I'm saying what is the priority? Transmission of truth requires a text (the words). If the text is primary (as it should be) then the music should be secondary, and fitted to the text. Thus, the text (truth) drives the music, not the other way around. Otherwise we wind up with vapid and inane songs, which are unfortunately filling the religious landscape and have been for over 50 plus years.

When our priorities are realigned with the Word, then we will put truth first, codify that truth into memorable and singable songs with expedient melodies, and our goal will be teaching, not crafting an "experience" of feeling. This in turn leads the assembly to mature into Scripture-directed worship and living and away from emotion-based and feeling-directed worship and living (what is called "sensuality" or directed by and for gratification of the senses.

ALL the great Christian music that has stood the test of time was written explicitly from that point of view, unlike almost all modern Christian music which is written from a viewpoint of creating a mood and an "awesome" melody, and then fitting a text to the music, in order to create a cool experience for the audience. There has been a shift in the theology of music in the last 100 years, and it has not been TOWARDS a more Biblical view.

As for feelings, music in the church is Biblically meant to be a vehicle for expressing Bible truth (doctrine), not a vehicle for creating feelings or "experiences". Now, one should certainly feel what they sing. And singing can bring you into the feelings expressed by the song. But we aren't to be LED by feeling, or follow feeling. And the music should reflect that truth.

Its like preaching. Preaching can produce feeling in the hearer (and speaker). And preachers ought to feel what they preach. But preaching and using preaching "tricks and effects" in order to whip up feeling in the audience just to create a response is not Biblical nor is it healthy, spiritually.

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by Aquila

I'm sure you did explain it well. It's not you. It's most likely me. I'm reading what you're saying, but it doesn't resonate with my spiritual experience.

At Apostolic Lighthouse Church in Dayton Ohio they used to have family prayer on Tuesday nights. There was no "preaching". The doors were open and the lights in the sanctuary were dimmed. You were free to come in and find a seat on a pew, lay down in a pew, get down on your knees between the pews, lay prostrate between the pews, keel at the altar, or even lay prostrate before the altar. Whatever was comfortable for you or better expressed how you were feeling the Lord lead you. Nobody was going to beat anyone up if they felt more comfortable laying down in a pew as they prayed. For some, laying down eased tension and back pain from sitting all day at a desk. People were permitted to pray silently or to pray openly. One could pray in English or in tongues. One could even sing if they so desired, or even sing in tongues. It was only asked that one not be too loud or disruptive in a manner that drew attention from the Lord to themselves. One was free to walk the isles as they prayed. One was permitted to approach others and pray for them, even laying hands, if they felt led to do so. There were times wherein they played soft instrumental hymns. The muffled sound of prayers, groaning, tongues, and weeping, could be heard silently rising from the pews throughout the hour. It was your time with God to seek him as you felt led. You were encouraged to come even if you didn't feel like you needed prayer or to pray. Even if all you did was just to "bask in the presence of the LORD", you were encouraged to come. It was a time for healing, meditation, and prayer. It started at around 6pm and ended at around 7pm. At the end of the prayer service they'd fade the music and begin raising the lights. People would often stand and begin clapping and praising more exuberantly at this time. Many tear stained faces could be seen looking up with hands raised towards Heaven. The pastor would take the platform and join in the praise. He'd take the mic and guide us into more focused corporate prayer if someone was sick or in need. He'd share whatever thoughts the LORD had put on his mind during prayer. At times, there might even be tongues and interpretation. He'd welcome prayer requests and we'd take a moment to pray together for those requests. Any updates or church announcements were made. Then he'd close with a closing prayer. Most then prepared to go home, but those of us in the choir made our way to the platform because choir practice was about to start at 7:30. We'd have choir practice until between 8pm and 8:30pm (for special services we'd sometimes stay until 9pm) and then we closed in prayer and headed home.

That was Tuesday nights at the Apostolic Lighthouse. It was like that from the 1980's until well after the year 2007, which was when I left. All of this was long before the "soaking prayer" movement. And Pastor Shearer spoke of prayer meetings like these going all the way back to his childhood (which was like the mid to late 1920's and 30's).

Was what we were doing "soaking prayer"? I know we sure felt soaked in the Holy Ghost afterwards.

After learning about soaking prayer and experiencing it, the only difference I found was that it is a little more structured to suit distinct needs like healing, recovery, removing anxiety, faith building, etc.. And soaking prayer can be practiced in the privacy of one's home. (But then again, so can any form of prayer.)

So, from my perspective and experience, I've essentially been doing what they're calling "soaking prayer" since at least the mid 1980's until now. As a result, my experience in Pentecost makes all the statements you're making about it sound way out in left field to me.

Sounds like you are simply drawing close to God.

[Esaias]

"Soaking" is not Pentecostal. It is Toronto Airport Vineyard stuff. Same group that gave the world "Holy Laughter and New Wine Revival" back in the 90s. What Aquila described as "prayer meeting" is not "soaking prayer".

[Esaias]

Mike Bickle, IHOP, and the Vatican together and having a great ole time! Watch, especially around the 3-5 minute mark when Mike Bickle is giving his testimony. This is what IHOP is actually about.

[Esaias]

Kenneth Copeland wants you to join with Kansas city IHOP at their ecumencial Kairos events: