We're Not Putting X-Mas Trees Up!

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Jermyn Davidson

As long as we esteem as a day unto the Lord, that was St. Paul's requirement and we must be careful to not offend our weaker brothers and sisters.

You know when individuals quote the above scripture they never practice what they claim they are doing.

The weak Brothers and Sisters are not individuals who are presenting factual truth to individuals who hide their head in the sand concerning those presented facts.

The new converts come and already know that the practice is Roman Catholic and was borrowed from long gone Pagan religions. These new converts come looking for Apostolic Truths and find those who are in the Apostolic Faith making excuses for why THEY can celebrate the Catholic holiday. If they new convert has an issue or asks too many questions, then the new convert is told that he or she are weak. That is a stench in God's nostrils. The below is a post I made earlier in this discussion.

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

The ones who were weak were new converts. The strong ones were those who set the example even though they knew the idol was nothing.

So do you partake of the table of devils?

1Co 10:19-24

"What say I then? that the idol is any thing, or that which is offered in sacrifice to idols is any thing? But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils. Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils. Do we provoke the Lord to jealousy? are we stronger than he? All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but ALL THINGS EDIFY NOT. Let no man seek his own, but every man another's wealth."

Which means that Paul was telling the Corinthians that the Gentiles meat was offered to demons, therefore to share the Passover cup with Paganism was wrong. Even though the meat was meat, they were to seek their Brother's well being and not their own satisfaction. They were to be the mature ones to the weak ones. Doing without the pagan meat.

In Jesus name

Brother Benincasa

www.OnTimeJournal.com

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

That is not what the scripture means. The weaker Brother was a new convert, and one from paganism. There are people in the world and in other religions and sects who know the truth about the Catholic holy day. Now, they see you who claim to be in the "truth" celebrating the xmas. They are offended. To those like me and Brother Alex who don't celebrate the Roman Catholic feast day, we could care less what you do with your time. We speak are mind, you make excuses. End of story. Yet the new convert, and those who are in the world who know and understand the truth about the xmas, are the ones who lose out, because of your want for liberty to do as you very well please. Your position is that they just need to get over it.
Paul's position is that if what he was eating (meat offered to idols) offended a Brother, he would eat no meat that was used in pagan worship. Simple.
I don't care what you do, (I presented my arguments, my part is done) just as long as you don't pawn it off on my family or I.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Aquila

StMark had an excellent point. While Scripture doesn't demand that we set a day aside to commemorate Christ's birth... it doesn't condemn the idea either. It's a matter of Christian liberty.

It also dosen't condem prayer beads (rosary) in worship.

It doesn't condem kneeling and genuflecting (making the sign of the cross)

It doesn't condem the painting of Icons.

It doesn't condem confesional boths.

It doesn't condem lighting candles for prayers.

Yet, it does say Not to incorporate the worship of the heathens into the worship of the almighty God. I really enjoy these discussions on the Catholic Mass with Pentecostals. It always shows me that no matter what, if a person wants to do something they will make arguments and fight like wolves to protect their traditions. Even when they are going down in flames they will use self justification and conjecture to up hold their sacred cow. They turn around and blast conservatives for standards of dress, but when their own practices are attacked they make heroic attempts to defend them.

In Jesus name

Brother Benincasa

www.OnTimeJournal.com

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

It also dosen't condem prayer beads (rosary) in worship.

It doesn't condem kneeling and genuflecting (making the sign of the cross)

It doesn't condem the painting of Icons.

It doesn't condem confesional boths.

It doesn't condem lighting candles for prayers.

Yet, it does say Not to incorporate the worship of the heathens into the worship of the almighty God. I really enjoy these discussions on the Catholic Mass with Pentecostals. It always shows me that no matter what, if a person wants to do something they will make arguments and fight like wolves to protect their traditions. Even when they are going down in flames they will use self justification and conjecture to up hold their sacred cow. They turn around and blast conservatives for standards of dress, but when their own practices are attacked they make heroic attempts to defend them.

In Jesus name

Brother Benincasa

www.OnTimeJournal.com

Brother Benincasa, you're going to extremes. A Christmas tree is nothing but a seasonal decoration TODAY. It has no pagan meaning to it TODAY. I don't know a soul who bows down and worship's one TODAY. It's just a festive decoration.

By the way, I'd never consider you a "conservative".

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Brother Benincasa, you're going to extremes.

I am just going towards the conclusions of your posts. You open a Pandora's box when you use the kind of logic that says because the Bible doesn't specifically condem a pine tree covered in jewelry, therefore it is a legitimit form of Christian worship. The Bible does tell us not to mingle the worship of God with that of Dagon. When the ark of the covenant was placed in Dagon's temple, the Lord God knocked the idol down on its face (position of worship) and then after the image was propped back in an upright position, the Lord removed its head (authority) and hands (strength). When the built a golden calf they also built an altar unto the Lord God, when Judah, and Israel split the upper northern kingdom's king set up his own priests and two calves, (created his own way to celebrate the Lord) so the people would not return to Jerusalem. We just don't make this up as we go along, and are admonished to follow the way of the apostles on who the foundation is built with Jesus being at the head of the corner.

The woman who followed the Paul and Silas had a spirit of Python (the Dragon who gaurded the oracle of Delphi), the woman said:

"These men are the servants of the most High God, who proclaim to us the way of salvation."

Although the woman proclaimed a truth concerning Paul and Silas, and although the woman seemed to celebrate the coming of the message of the Gospel and its messengers, the apostle turned and rebuked her.

The apostle turned and rebuked the woman, because he didn't want his message to be mingled with her message.

Originally Posted by Aquila

A Christmas tree is nothing but a seasonal decoration TODAY. It has no pagan meaning to it TODAY.

Were do you live? I Bible study with college students who have full knowledge of the pagan roots of xmas, and its pine tree. In our Bible studies we have all kinds of people join us that find it refreshing that we present a clear and thoughtful argument on the roots of paganism found within modern Churchanity. A Swastika is a symbol of good will and triumph, and yet it has had its meaning changed to mean evil. The SS of the Nazis were just rune symbols. Yet they were given the meaning of evil. Still no matter what meaning while it be good or bad, they all belong to paganism, and movement that is diametrically opposed to God, and worship that concerned Him.

Like I said once in this thread already, you can serve chicken soup and hot dogs, and call it gumbo and boudin. Yet to all who know the truth and want the truth it's still just hotdogs and chicken soup.

Originally Posted by Aquila

I don't know a soul who bows down and worship's one TODAY. It's just a festive decoration.

You don't have to bow down to it, you just have to take the time to construct the image, to decorate it with the symbols, and talismans, amulets, and top it off with a pentagram or hexagram. To the person who props it up and decorates the image he thinks it is just part of a season, and festive decoration? Festive? As in the word festival, and a the celebrate the festival without knowing much about its true meaning. Just like people who sit on pews and really don't have a deep understanding about all they do in a church service. Yet ignorance of the law doesn't free us from its judgements.

Saying something is not a duck, when it's quacking and waddling, doesn't make it not a duck.

Originally Posted by Aquila

By the way, I'd never consider you a "conservative".

What does being a conservative have to do with not celebrating xmas?

In Jesus name

Brother Benincasa

www.OnTimeJournal.com

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

I am just going towards the conclusions of your posts. You open a Pandora's box when you use the kind of logic that says because the Bible doesn't specifically condem a pine tree covered in jewelry, therefore it is a legitimit form of Christian worship. The Bible does tell us not to mingle the worship of God with that of Dagon. When the ark of the covenant was placed in Dagon's temple, the Lord God knocked the idol down on its face (position of worship) and then after the image was propped back in an upright position, the Lord removed its head (authority) and hands (strength). When the built a golden calf they also built an altar unto the Lord God, when Judah, and Israel split the upper northern kingdom's king set up his own priests and two calves, (created his own way to celebrate the Lord) so the people would not return to Jerusalem. We just don't make this up as we go along, and are admonished to follow the way of the apostles on who the foundation is built with Jesus being at the head of the corner.

The woman who followed the Paul and Silas had a spirit of Python (the Dragon who gaurded the oracle of Delphi), the woman said:

"These men are the servants of the most High God, who proclaim to us the way of salvation."

Although the woman proclaimed a truth concerning Paul and Silas, and although the woman seemed to celebrate the coming of the message of the Gospel and its messengers, the apostle turned and rebuked her.

The apostle turned and rebuked the woman, because he didn't want his message to be mingled with her message.



Were do you live? I Bible study with college students who have full knowledge of the pagan roots of xmas, and its pine tree. In our Bible studies we have all kinds of people join us that find it refreshing that we present a clear and thoughtful argument on the roots of paganism found within modern Churchanity. A Swastika is a symbol of good will and triumph, and yet it has had its meaning changed to mean evil. The SS of the Nazis were just rune symbols. Yet they were given the meaning of evil. Still no matter what meaning while it be good or bad, they all belong to paganism, and movement that is diametrically opposed to God, and worship that concerned Him.

Like I said once in this thread already, you can serve chicken soup and hot dogs, and call it gumbo and boudin. Yet to all who know the truth and want the truth it's still just hotdogs and chicken soup.



You don't have to bow down to it, you just have to take the time to construct the image, to decorate it with the symbols, and talismans, amulets, and top it off with a pentagram or hexagram. To the person who props it up and decorates the image he thinks it is just part of a season, and festive decoration? Festive? As in the word festival, and a the celebrate the festival without knowing much about its true meaning. Just like people who sit on pews and really don't have a deep understanding about all they do in a church service. Yet ignorance of the law doesn't free us from its judgements.

Saying something is not a duck, when it's quacking and waddling, doesn't make it not a duck.



What does being a conservative have to do with not celebrating xmas?

In Jesus name

Brother Benincasa

www.OnTimeJournal.com

Bro. EB, I don't mix my worship with the custom of a Christmas tree. Frankly, I don't do anything special religiously during Christmas accept maybe put up a manger scene and read the Christmas story from my Bible. I see the Christmas tree and the decorations as a cultural custom, not a religious custom.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Brother Benincasa, you're going to extremes. A Christmas tree is nothing but a seasonal decoration TODAY. It has no pagan meaning to it TODAY. I don't know a soul who bows down and worship's one TODAY. It's just a festive decoration.

By the way, I'd never consider you a "conservative".

Amen.

There's nothing any different in having a christmas tree than eating meats offered to idols, unless you've got a weak conscience and empower an idol to become an actual god! Let's read Romans 14 and 1 Cor 8, for goodness' sakes.

[nahkoe]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Amen.

There's nothing any different in having a christmas tree than eating meats offered to idols, unless you've got a weak conscience and empower an idol to become an actual god! Let's read Romans 14 and 1 Cor 8, for goodness' sakes.

I get this idea that some of you think this is all in the person's head who thinks an idol is more than a piece of wood/stone/etc? Am I right?

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Amen.

There's nothing any different in having a christmas tree than eating meats offered to idols, unless you've got a weak conscience and empower an idol to become an actual god! Let's read Romans 14 and 1 Cor 8, for goodness' sakes.

You don't understand the scripture. Paul isn't giving license to go around eating meat in a pagan temple, nor is he advocating the saints visiting a pagan temple. This is the reason why Paul comments that he would eat NO MORE MEAT as long as the world standeth, if what he was doing would offend a new converts. Also the words of Christ when He makes His statement about if anyone would offend one of these little ones. Paul also refuse to take offerings 1st Corinthians 9, because he thought it would hinder the work of the Lord.

1Cor 10:14-33

"Wherefore, my dearly beloved, FLEE FROM IDOLATRY. I speak as to wise men; judge ye what I say. The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ? For we being many are one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread. Behold Israel after the flesh: are not they which eat of the sacrifices partakers of the altar? What say I then? that the idol is any thing, or that which is offered in sacrifice to idols is any thing? But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, THEY SACRIFICE TO DEVILS, and NOT to God: and I WOULD NOT THAT YE HAVE FELLOWSHIP WITH DEVILS. Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, AND the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, AND of the table OF DEVILS. Do we provoke the Lord to jealousy? are we stronger than he? All things are lawful for me, BUT all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, BUT all things EDIFY NOT. Let no man seek his OWN, but every man another's wealth. Whatsoever is sold in the shambles, that eat, asking no question for conscience sake: For the earth is the Lord's, and the fulness thereof. If any of them that believe not bid you to a feast, and ye be disposed to go; whatsoever is set before you, eat, asking no question for conscience sake. But if any man say unto you, This is offered in sacrifice unto idols, EAT NOT for his sake that shewed it, and for conscience sake: for the earth is the Lord's, and the fulness thereof: Conscience, I say, not thine own, but of the other: for why is my liberty judged of another man's conscience? For if I by grace be a partaker, why am I evil spoken of for that for which I give thanks? Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God. Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God: Even as I please all men in all things, NOT seeking mine own profit, but the profit of many, that they may BE SAVED."

The apostle presents a simple teaching about those who know better should set an example for those who do not. We seek the welfare of others and not ourselves, we use not our liberty as a cloak to do wrong but to do right.
Paul makes the statement that we are not to mingle the cup of the Lord and His table with the cup and table of devils. The pagans also had meat offerings and drink offerings (cups of blood) and Paul didn't want these practices confused with those that were held by the Jewish Law.
The Gentiles were told in Acts 15, to abstain from their old pagan practices.
Please allow the Bible to interpret itself with the whole council of the scriptures, instead of takig it out of context. You will find that the truth is easily seen.

in Jesus name

Brother Benincasa

www.OnTimeJournal.com

[Truthseeker]

Funny thing here, out of all the OT feast/celebration none are celebrated today by most churches but they do celebrate the ones that orginated in pagan worship.

[Digging4Truth]

Originally Posted by Aquila

The key is this...Christianity in Europe was attempting to redesign a pagan culture across an entire continent. Redefining ancient customs and bringing Christianity into focus during these celebrations was the best way to "overwrite" paganism and ensure that most of the worship of pagan gods was replaced with the worship and knowledge of Christ. Also much of the masses were illiterate. The holidays served as a time to teach Scriptural stories. Today, while we might put up a silly tree or place a wreath on our door...nobody would even know the first thing about the rituals or the pagan gods they honored. It also ended the revelries that terrorized the country side during the Yule season. It was a success. They successfully overwrote the culture of an entire continent. More than what I can say the "no Christmas" crowd can claim regarding taking America for Christ.

We of the no christmas crowd are a part of the crowd as a whole.

Some speak forwardly and lack tact in their approach.

Others of us keep our convictions in silence because questions lead to answers and answers lead to ridicule and ridicule leads to having to move on... again.

I have had to leave churches because someone finally found out that we don't do christmas.

They asked why.

I asked them to not ask me why.

They insisted.

I answered their questions.

I became someone who must be "dealt with"

i finally had to move on... again.

There are people of the "no christmas" persuasion who are rude, forward and press their beliefs on others.

The "no christmas" crowd does not have a corner on that market.

The "no christmas" crowd is intermingled with Christianity as a whole. We are not a lesser group who does less.

I pray at the altar with people and do not ask that they be ticked up as a score for the "no christmas" crowd.

They are converts of my Christ and His gospel.

There is no "no christmas" crowd outside the "normal" crowd and to say so or agree so is divisive to the body of Chirst.