Apostoic worship??

[Aquila]

One of the most powerful contemplative experiences I had was with the following text:

John 4:22-24 King James Version (KJV)
22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Now, typically when I read that Scripture, my mind quickly assesses the canned answer I had been taught for many decades, "God is indeed a spirit, and those who worship Him must worship Him in the Holy Spirit and in doctrinal purity."

But that isn't what it says.

It took me silencing my mind and truly contemplating the text to walk away from it with a far different understanding. The text tells us that God is a spirit. This is an ontological statement regarding God's substance. God is spirit. Those who worship Him must worship Him in "spirit" not "Spirit". This isn't a reference to the Holy Spirit at all. It is a reference to the human spirit. And so, what it is saying is that our worship must come from the core of our being, our spirit, or inner man. Carnal worship that is based on flesh doesn't please God. For example, Esaias pointed out the carnal and fleshly nature of some of the music produced by so many Charismatic churches. The lighting, smoke machines, blah, blah, blah... it's all carnal, from the flesh. Our worship must be the result of a deep reverence and love that comes from our inner man, our spirits.

The next realization through contemplation came from the phrase, "and in truth". One sister told me that Jesus was the way, the truth, and the life, and so true worship must come to God through Jesus. While theologically correct, the conclusion is drawn by using the word "truth" to string together different verses from very different contexts. It isn't sound. For years I was taught that this meant true doctrine. But this isn't sound either. Why? Because every man who has ever given a study using this verse will claim that we must worship God in true doctrine... and then go forward to tell us his "version" of true doctrine! LOL Even on this forum, among fellow Apostolics, we see different versions of "truth" based on whoever is expounding upon something. And many will tie their pet doctrine to what "truth" must be and so unless one embraces that individual's version of the "truth", the implication is that one isn't truly worshipping God in an acceptable manner. So this interpretation is far too subjective and leaves us adrift, being tossed on the sea of one human opinion and interpretation to another.

So, what is meant by God desiring that we worship Him "in spirit and in truth"?

It simply means that we are to worship God in spirit (our spirits, from our core, from our hearts) and in... authenticity. We are not to think too highly of ourselves. We are not to come to God pretending to be something we're not, or pretending to be more righteous than we really are. The day would come when men wouldn't go to the temple and worship God with the outward pretense of righteousness, which was only a self-righteousness. Men would come to Him as they were and where they were, being honest about who they are, and worship Him for who He is... appealing to His mercy.

Consider this parable that contrasts two men in prayer...

Luke 18:9-14 King James Version (KJV)
9 And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:
10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

One man prayed to God, his worship being predicated upon an intellectualized pretense of self-righteousness. The other man prayed to God, his worship being predicated upon a core understanding of who he truly was in God's sight, being honest with God about who and what he was. A sinner. This man's authenticity made him far more righteous than the Pharisee, even though the man was clearly a sinner filled with remorse. And so we see what it means to worship God "in spirit and in truth".

Keep in mind, when Jesus had told the woman at the well that the day was coming when men would worship God in spirit and in truth...He had just finished revealing that He knew that she was five times divorced, and that she was currently involved with a man that she wasn't married to. The implication was that one day she would be able to approach God and worship Him from the core of her being, from the core of her inner desire, her inner man... just as she is. She'd no longer have to be the outcast. And she'd no longer have to pretend to be some perfect creature in the shadows of the temple to avoid being harassed or possibly even stoned. Dare I say it, because it's corny and has been worn out... she could come "just as you are". She understood that this kind of loving intimacy and freedom from shame was to accompany the coming of the Messiah. This is why she answered saying:

John 4:24-26
24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
25 The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things.
26 Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am he.

He revealed to her that He was the Messiah, thus implying that the time to worship God in spirit and in truth was... now.

Did Jesus berate her about her having a lover?
Did Jesus condemn her and demand she fix her life before choosing to follow Him?
Did Jesus condemn her in any way?

No.

What happens next is quite interesting. What does this woman feel compelled to do?

John 4:28-30
28 The woman then left her waterpot, and went her way into the city, and saith to the men,
29 Come, see a man, which told me all things that ever I did: is not this the Christ?
30 Then they went out of the city, and came unto him.

And what was the result?

John 4:39-42
39 And many of the Samaritans of that city believed on him for the saying of the woman, which testified, He told me all that ever I did.
40 So when the Samaritans were come unto him, they besought him that he would tarry with them: and he abode there two days.
41 And many more believed because of his own word;
42 And said unto the woman, Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard him ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world.

Imagine that... Jesus used a woman, who was five times divorced and currently involved with a man she wasn't even married to, to reach an entire city.

She realized that if her intensions were pure, and from the deepest recesses of her spirit, she was free to worship God as she was, in authenticity. And this set her on fire to tell others about this Jesus. This is why Jesus tested her earlier in the conversation by asking her about her "husband". Jesus just wanted to know if she'd tell the truth. Was she authentic enough to admit that she had no husband? An imperfect person who is real (or authentic), serving from the deepest recesses of their spirit, can be used far more than a person whose faith is largely predicated upon an intellectualized pretense and self-righteousness.

I got up from my contemplation on John 4:24 with a renewed understanding of God's mercy and grace. Those who worship God must worship God in their spirits and in authenticity.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by n david

Yes

Which one?

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by good samaritan

soaking prayer???? Why do people have to go and put hokey pokey labels on everything. I try to soak up everything I can everytime I pray. I don't need a checklist to pray or worship.

music volume..... check
lighting........ check
comfortable seating ...... check
etc.... this has all gotten ridiculous and fake. People are trying to counterfeit only what God can do. I am not against technology and modern conveniences, but I will not give God that which cost me nothing. True worship comes at a price and I am not talking about purchasing the latest sound equip.

It's like I said, we've been doing this stuff for generations. It's just a natural part of prayer for us.

I don't really care for the label "soaking prayer". I think Charismatics just discovered good old fashioned prayer and meditation, and they put a label on it to market their "soaking prayer" music. lol

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by n david

You needn't purchase expensive sound equipment. Apparently candles and a hot bath are good as well.

I think candles and a hot bath would be more authentic than concert lighting, sound machines, and smoke machines. I'll admit it... I've prayed, worshipped, and talked to God quite a bit in the shower. Of course, I have two kids, so the bathroom is one of the very few places wherein I can be alone with God. lol

[n david]

Originally Posted by Aquila

One of the most powerful contemplative experiences I had was with the following text:

I got up from my contemplation on John 4:24 with a renewed understanding of God's mercy and grace. Those who worship God must worship God from the deepest recesses of their being in a spirit and disposition of authenticity.

That feeling when someone waxes on about something they obviously don't know about.

Contemplative prayer is not contemplating while you pray. Stop with the ridiculous posts about how you practice contemplative prayer. What you described above is not it.

Let's try it again:

""Contemplative prayer begins with “centering prayer,” a meditative practice where the practitioner focuses on a word and repeats that word over and over for the duration of the exercise.""

It is meant to "clear your mind" and engage with your inner self, because we all are divine beings.

Again, contemplative prayer is not sitting around in the quiet thinking/contemplating a scripture or verse.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by n david

That feeling when someone waxes on about something they obviously don't know about.

Contemplative prayer is not contemplating while you pray. Stop with the ridiculous posts about how you practice contemplative prayer. What you described above is not it.

Let's try it again:

""Contemplative prayer begins with “centering prayer,” a meditative practice where the practitioner focuses on a word and repeats that word over and over for the duration of the exercise.""

It is meant to "clear your mind" and engage with your inner self, because we all are divine beings.

Then, let me let you in on something... not everyone who engages in "contemplative prayer" does so exactly like the videos and articles you read.

1 Thessalonians 5:21
Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

Much of what is known as "contemplative prayer" is too Catholic for me. But elements of it did prove beneficial to my prayer life. If one wishes to call it "centering" or not, I don't care. I do focus in on the name of Jesus. At times, I have repeated it. I have cleared my mind of all the daily clutter, and opened my soul up to God, allowing my inner man to breathe in God's goodness (sometimes even speaking in tongues while doing so).

As an Apostolic, I'd like to show some of these Catholic gurus how contemplative prayer is really done.

- Scripture doesn't forbid focusing in on the name of Jesus. To me, becoming "centered" means to focus in on who Christ is and the power of His name. Recognizing that I am in Christ Jesus and He in me. One can't get more "centered" than that. And repeating the name, as I have heard oldtimers do it time and time again, isn't a "vain repetition" unless the name of Jesus is of no value, authority, or power.

- Scripture doesn't condemn clearing your mind of all the worldly thoughts, distractions, cares, or concerns of this life as part of prayer. In fact, I've never heard a preacher tell the congregation, "Now, I want you to remain distracted. Let all your cares, concerns, and worries continue to just race around in your head. Now we're ready to pray."

- And, as far as us being "divine beings", not everyone who practices contemplative prayer believes that. I sure don't. Now, I do realize that I have a divine being residing in me... Christ in me, the hope of glory. Now, if I can get in touch with Him, I know everything will be alright.

- And there is nothing wrong with contemplating God in the present, God in Scripture, what you desire or need from Him, how much you love Him, or what He's done for you. There is nothing wrong with contemplating doctrinal truth. Honestly, I don't see anything wrong with contemplation at all. It's just deep thought, consideration, and reflection on something. In this case, the LORD and His Word.

Again, contemplative prayer is not sitting around in the quiet thinking/contemplating a scripture or verse.

Maybe you guys should realize that when I say "contemplative prayer"... I really mean... "contemplative prayer". A contemplative prayer as it has been done on Pentecost long before some Charismatic Catholic Monk made a label called, "Contemplative Prayer", to sell a few books. If I can get you guys to realize this, maybe y'all can realize that the accusation that I'm practicing the mysticism that some of those Catholic gurus practice isn't all that accurate... which is what I've tried to tell you guys all along.

It's important to note, when dealing with things such as these... one specific method of practice doesn't reflect the reality. There are many ways in which contemplative prayer, soaking prayer, etc. are practiced. As I pray you've seen, I've taken what is valuable in these things and have chosen to incorporate it into my prayer life. However, I've also chosen not to incorporate those things that I don't find valuable into my prayer life.

But frankly, in my studies on this... the valuable aspects of these kinds of prayer have been put into practice by Pentecostals for generations.

I keep encountering you guys wanting to pigeonhole me as being just like Thomas Keating, in what I'm talking about. And I keep telling you, I'm not. If I met Thomas Keating (and could get beyond the boredom of his book), I'd say, "Hey Tom. I read your book on contemplative prayer. Interesting stuff. But have you looked into how Pentecostals have been doing this for over a century now? You'll discover some differences and some similarities. Here, let's go to a prayer meeting." lol

If you guys can just stop thinking that I'm Thomas Keating, and realize that what I'm talking about is a contemplative form of prayer that predates the "Contemplative Prayer" of Keating, we'll be well on our way to understanding what I'm really talking about.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by n david

Contemplative prayer is not contemplating while you pray.

So, if I contemplate while I pray, I can't call it contemplative prayer?

[Esaias]

I think a lot of people (including Pentecostals) just balk at the idea that the Scripture is the higher authority. They just don't like the idea that they themselves aren't ultimately in charge. Sure, they obey God's Word - when and where it suits them. But actual correction from the word? No, that's just not gonna fly. They have to "feel convicted" first, for example. They don't feel convicted from the word, either, necessarily. It's gotta be some kind of internal angst or something, which ultimately means their religion is not Bible directed but self directed.

Anyway, I haven't heard a lot of preaching the last 10-15 years or so that really exalted the Bible as the "final authority for faith and practice" like I heard when I first came into the Truth.

Everyman to his tents?

[n david]

Originally Posted by Aquila

If you guys can just stop thinking that I'm Thomas Keating, and realize that what I'm talking about is a contemplative form of prayer that predates the "Contemplative Prayer" of Keating, we'll be well on our way to understanding what I'm really talking about.

Here's a thought, stop calling it contemplative prayer. You're praying or studying. That's it. You're not doing what is commonly known as "contemplative prayer." So stop with the stupidity.

What Keating practiced and taught is NOT something Pentecostals have been doing for over a century. We do not believe we are divine. We do not "center" ourselves in order to contact the divine nature within ourselves. That is mysticism. That is occultism.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Here's a short description of how to enter into soaking prayer. Can you elaborate on what makes the prayer meetings I described different from soaking prayer?

How to Soak in God’s Presence

“Jesus says, ‘Ask and you will receive’. We’re very good at the asking part but how about the ‘receiving’? If we are the ones who are dong all the talking, it’s a pretty one-way conversation. Soaking is the listening part of our conversation with Him. It’s laying aside time to lie down and receive from Him.” --CTF Ministries

“When we discipline ourselves to behold Jesus in every circumstance, a transformation occurs. We learn how to sit, wait and watch for Him every day. The Holy Spirit teaches us about face-to-face, personal adoration; it comes from a worship that flows from a place of rest. When we sit at Jesus’ feet and just be, as Mary did, we behold Him. Worship cannot come out of striving, but out of stillness. Spending time with God gives us a touch from Him - this touch is such a pleasure that it will cause a spirit of adoration to well up in us, and overflow.” --Graham Cooke

There is joy in the life of those who practice soaking prayer. It’s time to lay your burdens at the feet of Jesus. It’s time to find rest for your soul in 2007. It’s time to be still and know that He is God. It may take a little effort to quiet your racing thoughts, but it’s well worth the effort. Let Him lead you beside still waters. Take time to meditate on the following Scriptures:

“Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For My yoke is easy and My burden is light” (Matthew 11:28-30).

“The Lord is my shepherd; I shall not want. He makes me to lie down in green pastures; He leads me beside the still waters. He restores my soul” (Psalms 23:1-3).

”When it comes to real devotion, come with nothing to do except to sit and learn how to wait, rest and be. Be still. Fill your mind with Jesus. Faith and stillness are sustenance for your spirit, so learn to focus on Jesus. When your mind wanders off, bring it back. Retrain it; it’s had years of having its own way. Renewing your spirit and your mind is exciting and has incredible fruit. Worship becomes natural for you, and the peace of God wells up in your heart. God’s perspective can be seen more quickly.” --Graham Cooke”

• Find a quiet place - A peaceful environment helps you to become peaceful on the inside.

• Listen to worship music - You may want to use quiet instrumental or quiet worship music. There is so much good soaking music available (www.soaking.net is an excellent resource).

• Quiet down your busy thoughts - Initially your thoughts can be racing all over, but know that the Lord is with you. Turn your attention to Him. Wait for your thoughts to settle.

• Invite the Holy Spirit to come and soak you in His presence - Surrender your mind, body and soul in prayer to the Holy Spirit. Humble yourself before Him.

• Focus on the Lord’s presence - Open your heart to God. You are learning to abide in Him. You are learning to focus on Him and His presence.

• Rest in faith and believe that God is working within you - It isn’t about what you can accomplish through your efforts; it’s about what God is doing in you.

• Give time to soaking in God’s presence - The more time you can spend in His presence, the better. Start with 20 minutes in His presence. You will find as you do this, in a very short time you will want to spend more time in His presence.

• Watch as God changes you - You will leave refreshed and full of the Holy Spirit. Your life will be different because God is changing you through soaking in His presence. You will have an impact on the world around you as you carry God’s presence with you wherever you go.

“Intimacy with God is the key to fruitfulness in every area of our lives. As we become more aware of His presence in us… so do other people. As we become more affected by His presence in us… so do those around us. By taking time in the secret place with God, we start to walk by the spirit in everyday life. We find that rather than striving to achieve things for God, He is building His kingdom through us.” --CTF Ministries

Begin today by soaking for at least 20 minutes in God’s presence. Practice the above points and watch what God does. Soaking prayer will have a transforming effect in your life.

“Soaking is a dedication: ‘God, this is time just for you.’ Soaking is an invitation: ‘God, do what you want to in me.’ Soaking is an expectation: ‘Thank you, Father, for what you are accomplishing as I rest in you.’ We come to Him like little children believing that He has good things for us. ‘If you then know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask Him.” --CTF Ministries

Together in the Harvest,

Here's a short video on soaking prayer:

A book I highly recommend you read is Jessie Penn-Lewis' War on the Saints. Here's a link to the 1912 edition:
http://www.banner.org.uk/media/books...the_Saints.pdf