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  #51  
Old 03-18-2007, 10:12 PM
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Originally Posted by rkentsmith View Post
NeoCons......

Would you parse this word for me......

I jus thought there was cons and libs and mods.....

neocons?????

hahaha
In the recent weeks and months, people have been wondering what a neocon is. There's a lot of misunderstanding: some think it describes a fictional conspiracy theory, others think it's a contemptuous moniker for the "Hawks" in the US government. It's neither. Neoconservatism is a political agenda that concentrates on militarily inforcing an aggressive US foreign policy - "neoconservative" is the word used by it's adherents to describe their agenda.

Although "neo-con" sounds nasty in itself, is not a term of derision (although many deride their agenda) - it's just short for "neoconservative", a term the movement is comfortable with. Here are a few books by neoconservatives that use "neoconservative" in the title:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1568331002/
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN//0844738980/

The word is also used quite comfortably at the American Enterprise Institute's website. The neoconservative writer Max Boot wrote "What the Heck Is a Neocon?" in late December 2002 - an article that interestingly starts off by saying "the term the term has clearly come unmoored from its original meaning" yet ends the article claiming that the White House's national security strategy sounds like it may have come straight from "the neocon bible." So according to some neoconservatives, "neocon" is quite meaningless yet is a group cohesive enough to have a publication that states their position close enough to be considered it's "bible".
OK, So What Exactly is the Neoconservative Agenda?

The thrust of neoconservatism aims at US military and economic domination the world. Ooop! If you all of a sudden imagine this author wearing a tinfoil hat and being ever watchful for black helicopters, please withhold judgement until you've read to the end of this page and check enough of the cited links to be convinced this is not a page of fiction.

A short and unintimidating summary of the neoconservative agenda can be found in an excerpt from the website of the American Interprise Institute, a Washington think-tank that advises the Pentagon (Vice President Dick Cheney's wife, Lynn Cheney currently sits on AEI's Board of Directors):

"Influential neoconservatives, including Rumsfeld, Cheney, Wolfowitz, William Kristol, Douglas Feith, and Richard Perle, have been arguing for years in favor of an assertive U.S. strategy in the post-Cold War world. In 1997, they and other like-minded intellectuals organized the Project for the New American Century, which urged then-President Clinton to confront Iraq. "America was being too timid, too weak, and too unassertive in the post-Cold War world," Kristol argues. "American leadership was key to, not only world stability, but any hope for spreading democracy and freedom around the world."

Hartcher says, "This [war] is about the neoconservative view, the idealistic view, the Wilsonian view, that the world would be a better place if only America can make it that way." The neoconservatives advocate a paradigm shift in which the United States spreads American values by asserting American power-by force, if necessary."
SOURCE: http://www.aei.org/news/newsID.16723/news_detail.asp

The name the movement gives this US empire, "Pax Americana" is taken from the name for the British Empire ("Pax Britannia") - which was taken from "Pax Romana", the name for the Roman Empire. They used to refer to their invisioned future as a "beneficent hegemony". These are nice soft sounding phrases, but after examining their policy papers, editorials and letters, one sees that it's just a dressed up way of saying "American World Empire". Actually, they include space too, as they want to "pave the way for the creation of a new military service - U.S. Space Forces - with the mission of space control." (Rebuilding America's Defenses, page 12.)
Where and When Did the Neocons Get Their Start?

After the dissolution of the USSR, the United States found itself in the unique position of the only military superpower. The seed for the overall plan is perhaps contained iun a 1992 Pentagon document called "Defense Planning Guidance" and written by Paul Wolfowitz, then undersecretary of Defense in the G H W Bush administration. The classified paper was leaked to The Washington Post and New York Times in March 1992. Basically it outlined the "need" for world domination through military force:

"Our first objective is to prevent the re-emergence of a new rival. This is a dominant consideration underlying the new regional defense strategy and requires that we endeavor to prevent any hostile power from dominating a region whose resources would, under consolidated control, be sufficient to generate global power. These regions include Western Europe, East Asia, the territory of the former Soviet Union, and Southwest Asia.

"There are three additional aspects to this objective: First the U.S must show the leadership necessary to establish and protect a new order that holds the promise of convincing potential competitors that they need not aspire to a greater role or pursue a more aggressive posture to protect their legitimate interests. Second, in the non-defense areas, we must account sufficiently for the interests of the advanced industrial nations to discourage them from challenging our leadership or seeking to overturn the established political and economic order. Finally, we must maintain the mechanisms for deterring potential competitors from even aspiring to a larger regional or global role."

Excerpts can be found at:
http://www.princeton.edu/~ppn/docfil...agon_1992.html and
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontl.../etc/wolf.html

The current version of the National Security Strategy more succinctly says, "our military must ... dissuade future military competition."

Neoconservatives see the US's position as the only military superpower as an opportunity to implement a permanent world empire - they call this opportunity a "uni-polar moment":

China looms as the barrier along the road from the current 'unipolar moment' to an extended pax Americana."
- Gary Schmitt & Thomas Donnelly, April 23, 2000
Who Excatly are the Neocons?

There isn't a political Neoconservative Party, so a neoconservative is just someone with neoconservative ideas. The prime movers of the neoconservative movement have all at one time shared the same roof under the Project For a New American Century (PNAC). PNAC is a think tank that advises on military and diplomatic affairs, has it's offices in the American Enterprise Institute building. It consists of polititions, defense experts, and editorialists. Signers of PNACs original 1987 mission statement who currently serve in government include:

* Donald Rumsfeld (Secretary of Defense)
* Paul Wolfowitz (Deputy Secretary of Defense)
* Peter W. Rodman (Assistant Secretary of Defense)
* Dick Cheney (Vice President)
* Elliott Abrams (National Security Council)
* Steve Forbes (Forbes Magazine)
* Zalmay Khalilzad (special envoy for Afghanistan)
* Jeb Bush (Governor of Florida and brother of President George W. Bush)

SOURCE: http://www.newamericancentury.org/st...principles.htm

Many neoconservatives have served in both Bush administrations, you might have noticed.

Many others are prominent writers and editorialists. Robert Kagan and William Kristol frequently contribute editorials to The Washington post and others to The New York Times; several PNAC members contribute to the magazine The Weekly Standard - in fact, PNAC is chaired by William Kristol who is also The Weekly Standard's Editor.

Another original signer of the PNAC Statement of Principles was Norman Podhoretz, a journalist for conservative Jewish publications. He's said, "At a minimum, the axis should extend to Syria and Lebanon and Libya, as well as 'friends' of America like the Saudi royal family and Egypt's Hosni Mubarak, along with the Palestinian Authority".
Where Do They Want to Go from Here?

Neoconservatives have always push for more and expanded military action ... examples:

* In PNAC's letter to bush regarding 9/11, they urged Bush to attack Iraq "even if evidence does not link Iraq directly to the attack."
* At an AEI round table discussion on March 21, 2003, Michael Ladeen stated, "Iraq is not the war. And the war is a regional war, and we cannot be successful in Iraq if we only do Iraq alone. And I think that the terror countries bordering Iraq, namely, Iran and Syria, know that."
* In Ladeen's 2002 book, "The War Against The Terror Masters", he states America must "reconcile our democratic values with the necessity of imposing our will".

Where Can I Find Out More About Neoconservatism?

The best way to find out exactly what a neoconservative is to let them tell you themselves. The Project for the New American Century's website has a wealth of information.

http://www.newamericancentury.org/

Several websites are entirely dedicated to analyzing and watching neoconservativism and neoconservatives. Original Dissent is a good one from a conservative perspective, and PNAC.info is a good one from a liberal perspective.
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  #52  
Old 03-18-2007, 11:16 PM
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Felicity Felicity is offline
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Is there such a thing as a "Neo-Mod"?
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(surname courtesy of Jim Yohe)
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  #53  
Old 03-18-2007, 11:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Felicity View Post
Is there such a thing as a "Neo-Mod"?
Or a "Neo-Lib?"
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  #54  
Old 03-18-2007, 11:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron View Post
Or a "Neo-Lib?"
Yeah, that too. LOL!

I don't think I'm Neo anything. Can you be Neo and old at the same time?
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  #55  
Old 03-19-2007, 01:02 AM
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Praxeas Praxeas is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rkentsmith View Post
Dude you confused me this time.....

neocons....definition please
Can you address where you got the definition for "legalism"?
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  #56  
Old 03-19-2007, 02:44 AM
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tv1a tv1a is offline
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And televisions as monitors.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Berkeley View Post
Liberty is now legalism. Of course he'd see it like that. The same crowd refers to bondage as liberty.
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  #57  
Old 03-19-2007, 02:59 AM
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tv1a tv1a is offline
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Neo-cons is what you get when conservatism goes unchecked. Anarchy is the result of unchecked liberalism.

A neo-con is one who is extremely conservative to point of ridiculous AND trying to push their extremist views on others.

The Pharisees were neocons. More modern example would include the antagonists of WWII.

The conservative movement has been hijacked by the extreme element. The conservative movement has gone from using Biblcal based principles for positions to selectively applying principle. The true conservatives in the group has been silenced by the radicals in the group.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rkentsmith View Post
NeoCons......

Would you parse this word for me......

I jus thought there was cons and libs and mods.....

neocons?????

hahaha
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  #58  
Old 03-19-2007, 05:12 AM
Parkbench Parkbench is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sister Alvear View Post
I have friends on both sides...if someone has the wrong spirit it will be theirs and not mine for I made up my mind a long time ago how I would live...and part of that was not condemning those that feel stricter or more liberal...I will have to answer to God for Janice Alvear...I do not plan to wound any of God's people. If I am too strict please pray for me, if I am too liberal please pray for me...
"For by this shall all men KNOW that ye are my disciple IF you have love one for another..." Jesus.

I pray my spirit and attitude become more and more like the above.
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  #59  
Old 03-19-2007, 07:06 AM
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Ferd Ferd is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rkentsmith View Post
Flippantly Flaunted Spiritual Liberties .....

Seems that there are those that love to hang around the edges of UPCI ministry......

They love the fellowship......

They love the conferences and brotherhood.....

And some find great joy in flippantly flaunting their spiritual liberties.....

Saying things like....

I can do this.....

I am able to participate in this certain activity.....

There is no scripture for this particular thing so I do it.....

Or my family does.......

The manual does not prohibit this so I will do it......

My membership in said organization does not say that I cannot do this.....

My brothers......

The flaunting of spiritual liberties is a reproach....

It reaks of legalism....

Legalism is the attempt to see how close to the world one can go but still be in the church.....

Spiritual liberties flaunted in the face of others is legalistic.....

More plainly it is classless.....

Ah yes...we have all seen the ultra conservatives in their moments of holier than thou ism's

They are wrong....

But just as wrong is the flippant flaunting of spiritual liberties.......

This is more legalistic than the ultra converative's stand on many issues.....

Whatever happened to the Pauline concept of....

If meat offend my brother then I will eat no meat?

What we see today is.....

Meat offends my brother, so I offer him cowpie.....

truth. legalism knows no party affiliation (or pennycostalpersuasion)...

I prefer living by the perfect law of liberty.

I am at liberty to do anything, I will not be brought under the power of any!

I can do all things thru Christ who strengthens me!
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  #60  
Old 03-19-2007, 07:14 AM
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Ferd Ferd is offline
I remain the Petulant Chevalier


 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron View Post
In the recent weeks and months, people have been wondering what a neocon is. There's a lot of misunderstanding: some think it describes a fictional conspiracy theory, others think it's a contemptuous moniker for the "Hawks" in the US government. It's neither. Neoconservatism is a political agenda that concentrates on militarily inforcing an aggressive US foreign policy - "neoconservative" is the word used by it's adherents to describe their agenda.

Although "neo-con" sounds nasty in itself, is not a term of derision (although many deride their agenda) - it's just short for "neoconservative", a term the movement is comfortable with. Here are a few books by neoconservatives that use "neoconservative" in the title:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1568331002/
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN//0844738980/

The word is also used quite comfortably at the American Enterprise Institute's website. The neoconservative writer Max Boot wrote "What the Heck Is a Neocon?" in late December 2002 - an article that interestingly starts off by saying "the term the term has clearly come unmoored from its original meaning" yet ends the article claiming that the White House's national security strategy sounds like it may have come straight from "the neocon bible." So according to some neoconservatives, "neocon" is quite meaningless yet is a group cohesive enough to have a publication that states their position close enough to be considered it's "bible".
OK, So What Exactly is the Neoconservative Agenda?

The thrust of neoconservatism aims at US military and economic domination the world. Ooop! If you all of a sudden imagine this author wearing a tinfoil hat and being ever watchful for black helicopters, please withhold judgement until you've read to the end of this page and check enough of the cited links to be convinced this is not a page of fiction.

A short and unintimidating summary of the neoconservative agenda can be found in an excerpt from the website of the American Interprise Institute, a Washington think-tank that advises the Pentagon (Vice President Dick Cheney's wife, Lynn Cheney currently sits on AEI's Board of Directors):

"Influential neoconservatives, including Rumsfeld, Cheney, Wolfowitz, William Kristol, Douglas Feith, and Richard Perle, have been arguing for years in favor of an assertive U.S. strategy in the post-Cold War world. In 1997, they and other like-minded intellectuals organized the Project for the New American Century, which urged then-President Clinton to confront Iraq. "America was being too timid, too weak, and too unassertive in the post-Cold War world," Kristol argues. "American leadership was key to, not only world stability, but any hope for spreading democracy and freedom around the world."

Hartcher says, "This [war] is about the neoconservative view, the idealistic view, the Wilsonian view, that the world would be a better place if only America can make it that way." The neoconservatives advocate a paradigm shift in which the United States spreads American values by asserting American power-by force, if necessary."
SOURCE: http://www.aei.org/news/newsID.16723/news_detail.asp

The name the movement gives this US empire, "Pax Americana" is taken from the name for the British Empire ("Pax Britannia") - which was taken from "Pax Romana", the name for the Roman Empire. They used to refer to their invisioned future as a "beneficent hegemony". These are nice soft sounding phrases, but after examining their policy papers, editorials and letters, one sees that it's just a dressed up way of saying "American World Empire". Actually, they include space too, as they want to "pave the way for the creation of a new military service - U.S. Space Forces - with the mission of space control." (Rebuilding America's Defenses, page 12.)
Where and When Did the Neocons Get Their Start?

After the dissolution of the USSR, the United States found itself in the unique position of the only military superpower. The seed for the overall plan is perhaps contained iun a 1992 Pentagon document called "Defense Planning Guidance" and written by Paul Wolfowitz, then undersecretary of Defense in the G H W Bush administration. The classified paper was leaked to The Washington Post and New York Times in March 1992. Basically it outlined the "need" for world domination through military force:

"Our first objective is to prevent the re-emergence of a new rival. This is a dominant consideration underlying the new regional defense strategy and requires that we endeavor to prevent any hostile power from dominating a region whose resources would, under consolidated control, be sufficient to generate global power. These regions include Western Europe, East Asia, the territory of the former Soviet Union, and Southwest Asia.

"There are three additional aspects to this objective: First the U.S must show the leadership necessary to establish and protect a new order that holds the promise of convincing potential competitors that they need not aspire to a greater role or pursue a more aggressive posture to protect their legitimate interests. Second, in the non-defense areas, we must account sufficiently for the interests of the advanced industrial nations to discourage them from challenging our leadership or seeking to overturn the established political and economic order. Finally, we must maintain the mechanisms for deterring potential competitors from even aspiring to a larger regional or global role."

Excerpts can be found at:
http://www.princeton.edu/~ppn/docfil...agon_1992.html and
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontl.../etc/wolf.html

The current version of the National Security Strategy more succinctly says, "our military must ... dissuade future military competition."

Neoconservatives see the US's position as the only military superpower as an opportunity to implement a permanent world empire - they call this opportunity a "uni-polar moment":

China looms as the barrier along the road from the current 'unipolar moment' to an extended pax Americana."
- Gary Schmitt & Thomas Donnelly, April 23, 2000
Who Excatly are the Neocons?

There isn't a political Neoconservative Party, so a neoconservative is just someone with neoconservative ideas. The prime movers of the neoconservative movement have all at one time shared the same roof under the Project For a New American Century (PNAC). PNAC is a think tank that advises on military and diplomatic affairs, has it's offices in the American Enterprise Institute building. It consists of polititions, defense experts, and editorialists. Signers of PNACs original 1987 mission statement who currently serve in government include:

* Donald Rumsfeld (Secretary of Defense)
* Paul Wolfowitz (Deputy Secretary of Defense)
* Peter W. Rodman (Assistant Secretary of Defense)
* Dick Cheney (Vice President)
* Elliott Abrams (National Security Council)
* Steve Forbes (Forbes Magazine)
* Zalmay Khalilzad (special envoy for Afghanistan)
* Jeb Bush (Governor of Florida and brother of President George W. Bush)

SOURCE: http://www.newamericancentury.org/st...principles.htm

Many neoconservatives have served in both Bush administrations, you might have noticed.

Many others are prominent writers and editorialists. Robert Kagan and William Kristol frequently contribute editorials to The Washington post and others to The New York Times; several PNAC members contribute to the magazine The Weekly Standard - in fact, PNAC is chaired by William Kristol who is also The Weekly Standard's Editor.

Another original signer of the PNAC Statement of Principles was Norman Podhoretz, a journalist for conservative Jewish publications. He's said, "At a minimum, the axis should extend to Syria and Lebanon and Libya, as well as 'friends' of America like the Saudi royal family and Egypt's Hosni Mubarak, along with the Palestinian Authority".
Where Do They Want to Go from Here?

Neoconservatives have always push for more and expanded military action ... examples:

* In PNAC's letter to bush regarding 9/11, they urged Bush to attack Iraq "even if evidence does not link Iraq directly to the attack."
* At an AEI round table discussion on March 21, 2003, Michael Ladeen stated, "Iraq is not the war. And the war is a regional war, and we cannot be successful in Iraq if we only do Iraq alone. And I think that the terror countries bordering Iraq, namely, Iran and Syria, know that."
* In Ladeen's 2002 book, "The War Against The Terror Masters", he states America must "reconcile our democratic values with the necessity of imposing our will".

Where Can I Find Out More About Neoconservatism?

The best way to find out exactly what a neoconservative is to let them tell you themselves. The Project for the New American Century's website has a wealth of information.

http://www.newamericancentury.org/

Several websites are entirely dedicated to analyzing and watching neoconservativism and neoconservatives. Original Dissent is a good one from a conservative perspective, and PNAC.info is a good one from a liberal perspective.

While, I agree with this articles point that NeoCons seek to use American military might to create peace in the world, I very much disagree with the notion that the goal is "American Empire"

It IS about Nation Building (somethign GWB said he was against, then dove into with gusto). It IS about creating stable indipendant democracies in unstable dictatorial parts of the world.

the working Theory is that Iraq can become a becon in the non-democratic Middle East, thus changing the view of America that muslims currently have, and providing a blueprint for freedom fighters in other places like Iran and Syria.
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