Obey Them that Rule???

[Michlow]

Originally Posted by Coonskinner

Mich,

Because of the fact that we are emtoional beings and can be affected by many different variables, I cannot trust that I will always see things clearly.

The decision in question was not one that could be decided by clear Scriptural precedent. Neither joining or not joining would violate the Word.

I knew my personal judgment was very likely clouded by bad experiences suffered and wounds received.

So because I trust these men and know that they are men of integrity who love me, walk with God, and want the best for me, I choose to trust them at times when I don't have a clear Scriptural edict, or a definite Word from God for myself.

I believe this to be the best safety net I can have.

I can agree with that. And I am glad that you have those who you respect, trust and admire, and can share spiritual unity with.

[ILG]

Originally Posted by Michlow

And that ultimately is the lesson to be learned by me, I think. Knowing that i can't trust myself, and I can't trust anyone else. Who can I trust? Only Jesus.

And that in itself is not an easy process. When you are told for so long. This is who Jesus is. This is what Jesus believes. And then you start to question what you were taught. You have to start all over and ask, "Who is this Jesus anyway?" Not the SAFE Jesus that so many would want in their churches, you know the one who would have to shave off his beard and wouldn't be able to hang around sinners, but the real deal.

And when so many lies or partial lies have been mixed with truth, its hard to sort it out. And when you are taught to believe that Church IS God, and that church people ARE OF God, its hard to remember that God is not at fault.

True. I will be praying for you Michlow.

[Coonskinner]

Originally Posted by ILG

Then you need a revelation from God on what to do. In the multidude of counselors there is safety. You are responsible for your own choices. I don't think it's always true that we can shuck our responsibilites to the wind in the name of submission.

I never suggested that we could or should.

Originally Posted by Michlow

Thank you ILG, that was my point. Someone can say "Hey God made me the spiritual leader over all of you", but WE determine whether we agree with that statement or not.

No, GOD determines whether that man is the spiritual leader. Your job is to go to HIM and ask HIM to show you those whom HE has put over you.

[ILG]

Originally Posted by Chan

No, WE don't get to decide. GOD decided. Our job is to obey HIM. It is treason against GOD to assert for ourselves personal sovereignty (such as you are doing in your post). God commands and our job is to obey. Mormons can't make any arguments because Mormons are not of God.

I'm not talking about personal sovereignty. I am talking about God sovereignty. Personal sovereignty also says MY pastor and MY leaders are of God because I said so!

[Michlow]

Originally Posted by Chan

No, GOD determines whether that man is the spiritual leader. Your job is to go to HIM and ask HIM to show you those whom HE has put over you.

Oh, well, he said he would get back to me on that

[ILG]

Originally Posted by Chan

No, GOD determines whether that man is the spiritual leader. Your job is to go to HIM and ask HIM to show you those whom HE has put over you.

I agree.

[MissBrattified]

Amazingly enough, I agree partially with:

Michlow
Coonskinner
Ronzo
ILG
Maybe Chan? (Not sure I know exactly what he's saying, so it seems hard to say for certain that I agree, but I think I do)

I agree with Ronzo that we decide who to submit ourselves to. I agree with Chan, that, generically speaking God has already decided who we ought to submit ourselves to (bishops, elders). I agree with Coonskinner that submission has no value until you have to obey in spite of a disagreement. I agree with ILG that we have a responsibility to place ourselves under godly leaders. I can't remember what I agree with Michlow about, but I read something I liked....I'll have to go back and find it.

I think that when you marry, you choose to submit yourself to your husband. It's your choice, but once you've made that commitment, God expects you to fulfill it. That is not to say, however, that you must obey your husband if he tells you to jump off a cliff, or if he tells you to do something that goes against God or something contrary to your convictions. However, there are smaller issues in which my will may be bent to submit to his will, and that's called "submission."

The relationship is not the same, but the principles are, IMO, when it comes to church government. When I choose to join an assembly, I believe that I am making the choice to submit myself to that leadership and "follow....as they follow Christ." That is not to say that, if the leadership were to instruct me in something contrary to God's Word that I would be required to submit, because my first allegience is to God.

However, there are smaller issues which are not a matter of disobeying God or violating my own convictions, but rather require me setting aside my own preferences, and bending my will to that of the church leadership, and that is called "submission."

If I have to submit on every matter, no matter what, no matter what the consequences, that is subservience, not submission. Submission is my choice to be obedient, within certain parameters and boundaries, keeping priorities clearly in focus. My choice is, of course, based on my ultimate submission to God, who is the One who gave me the command, and therefore the concept of submitting to my elders (and my husband...and my parents).

Originally Posted by Michlow

And when you are taught to believe that Church IS God, and that church people ARE OF God, its hard to remember that God is not at fault.

I've never known any Pentecostal church to teach that the Church is God. However, even the Bible says that Christians (not necessarily every person who just happens to attend church) are "of God" (see 1 John 4:4-6 and 5:19).

[ILG]

Originally Posted by MissBrattified

Amazingly enough, I agree partially with:

Michlow
Coonskinner
Ronzo
ILG
Maybe Chan? (Not sure I know exactly what he's saying, so it seems hard to say for certain that I agree, but I think I do)

I agree with Ronzo that we decide who to submit ourselves to. I agree with Chan, that, generically speaking God has already decided who we ought to submit ourselves to (bishops, elders). I agree with Coonskinner that submission has no value until you have to obey in spite of a disagreement. I agree with ILG that we have a responsibility to place ourselves under godly leaders. I can't remember what I agree with Michlow about, but I read something I liked....I'll have to go back and find it.

I think that when you marry, you choose to submit yourself to your husband. It's your choice, but once you've made that commitment, God expects you to fulfill it. That is not to say, however, that you must obey your husband if he tells you to jump off a cliff, or if he tells you to do something that goes against God or something contrary to your convictions. However, there are smaller issues in which my will may be bent to submit to his will, and that's called "submission."

The relationship is not the same, but the principles are, IMO, when it comes to church government. When I choose to join an assembly, I believe that I am making the choice to submit myself to that leadership and "follow....as they follow Christ." That is not to say that, if the leadership were to instruct me in something contrary to God's Word that I would be required to submit, because my first allegience is to God.

However, there are smaller issues which are not a matter of disobeying God or violating my own convictions, but rather require me setting aside my own preferences, and bending my will to that of the church leadership, and that is called "submission."

If I have to submit on every matter, no matter what, no matter what the consequences, that is subservience, not submission. Submission is my choice to be obedient, within certain parameters and boundaries, keeping priorities clearly in focus. My choice is, of course, based on my ultimate submission to God, who is the One who gave me the command, and therefore the concept of submitting to my elders (and my husband...and my parents).

Very good post, MB.