We'll agree to disagree at how we view the Church of God.
Obviously, MissB ... the UPC pastor is the victim in your eyes ... sans evidence ... perhaps bias affects your judgment?
DA, perhaps it affects yours?
If this were your multi-cultural church that members were being targetted... you may have a different take on it completely.
Do you ever look at yourself and think... "I might actually be biased here"?
__________________ Mrs. LPW
Psalm 19:14
Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer.
IMHO...the "sheep" do not belong to a church..a pastor..an organization....they belong to God. if it does not belong to you....it cannot be stolen/taken from you. ownership is God's and God's alone. i see no Biblical right....to ask/demand/or question another Christ-follower for thier choice to change places of fellowship/worship. feed the sheep that God allows to come in your path.
In my experience....most pastors who hold a very tight leash on attendence....only really care when its a "high-dollar/high-talent" sheep that goes missing....and don't care so much when it involves a sheep that requires more of them.
IMHO...the "sheep" do not belong to a church..a pastor..an organization....they belong to God. if it does not belong to you....it cannot be stolen/taken from you. ownership is God's and God's alone. i see no Biblical right....to ask/demand/or question another Christ-follower for thier choice to change places of fellowship/worship. feed the sheep that God allows to come in your path.
In my experience....most pastors who hold a very tight leash on attendence....only really care when its a "high-dollar/high-talent" sheep that goes missing....and don't care so much when it involves a sheep that requires more of them.
You keep repeating yourself.
Of course congregants can't be stolen from God. They are His, no matter what.
However, causing division is against scripture, and it can occur in many forms. Those who sow discord WILL answer to God for their actions.
Pro 6:16 These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him: Pro 6:17 A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, Pro 6:18An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief, Pro 6:19 A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.
Php 2:3 Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves.
Php 2:4 Look not every man on his own things, but every man also on the things of others.
"Vainglory" means "empty glorying" or "self conceit." To me it is arrogant and conceited to presume that YOU or YOUR church will have more to offer than the neighboring church or pastor, and to pursue other church members from that perspective. Even if you are right, your motives are wrong.
__________________
"God, send me anywhere, only go with me. Lay any burden on me, only sustain me. And sever any tie in my heart except the tie that binds my heart to Yours."
--David Livingstone
"To see no being, not God’s or any, but you also go thither,
To see no possession but you may possess it—enjoying all without labor or purchase—
abstracting the feast, yet not abstracting one particle of it;…."
--Walt Whitman, Leaves of Grass, Song of the Open Road
IMHO...the "sheep" do not belong to a church..a pastor..an organization....they belong to God. if it does not belong to you....it cannot be stolen/taken from you. ownership is God's and God's alone. i see no Biblical right....to ask/demand/or question another Christ-follower for thier choice to change places of fellowship/worship. feed the sheep that God allows to come in your path.
In my experience....most pastors who hold a very tight leash on attendence....only really care when its a "high-dollar/high-talent" sheep that goes missing....and don't care so much when it involves a sheep that requires more of them.
Getting back to the topic now....do you have any thoughts on the church and pastor that are actively targetting other Oneness churches to take people from those congregations to enlarge their own?
Do you think such a congregation/Pastor is a healthy one that does that without any care or concern how it might affect the people they are "taking" and the congregation they are dividing?
__________________ Let it be understood that Apostolic Friends Forum is an Apostolic Forum.
Apostolic is defined on AFF as:
There is One God. This one God reveals Himself distinctly as Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
The Son is God himself in a human form or "God manifested in the flesh" (1Tim 3:16)
Every sinner must repent of their sins.
That Jesus name baptism is the only biblical mode of water baptism.
That the Holy Ghost is for today and is received by faith with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues.
The saint will go on to strive to live a holy life, pleasing to God.
Of course congregants can't be stolen from God. They are His, no matter what.
However, causing division is against scripture, and it can occur in many forms. Those who sow discord WILL answer to God for their actions.
Pro 6:16 These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him: Pro 6:17 A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, Pro 6:18An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief, Pro 6:19 A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.
Php 2:3 Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves. Php 2:4 Look not every man on his own things, but every man also on the things of others.
"Vainglory" means "empty glorying" or "self conceit." To me it is arrogant and conceited to presume that YOU or YOUR church will have more to offer than the neighboring church or pastor, and to pursue other church members from that perspective. Even if you are right, your motives are wrong.
I see a pattern here lol. Yes this person is repeating him/herself and not really addressing what seems to be the issue
__________________ Let it be understood that Apostolic Friends Forum is an Apostolic Forum.
Apostolic is defined on AFF as:
There is One God. This one God reveals Himself distinctly as Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
The Son is God himself in a human form or "God manifested in the flesh" (1Tim 3:16)
Every sinner must repent of their sins.
That Jesus name baptism is the only biblical mode of water baptism.
That the Holy Ghost is for today and is received by faith with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues.
The saint will go on to strive to live a holy life, pleasing to God.
What I find ironic is everything that was said about the UPC Pastor could or should be said about the pastor of the church that persues taking saints from one congregation and adding them to his own. Not merely allowing them to become part of his congregation. Persuing or targeting members of other Oneness congregations.
Not only ironic but sad that some here have not made that connection
__________________ Let it be understood that Apostolic Friends Forum is an Apostolic Forum.
Apostolic is defined on AFF as:
There is One God. This one God reveals Himself distinctly as Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
The Son is God himself in a human form or "God manifested in the flesh" (1Tim 3:16)
Every sinner must repent of their sins.
That Jesus name baptism is the only biblical mode of water baptism.
That the Holy Ghost is for today and is received by faith with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues.
The saint will go on to strive to live a holy life, pleasing to God.
Of course congregants can't be stolen from God. They are His, no matter what.
However, causing division is against scripture, and it can occur in many forms. Those who sow discord WILL answer to God for their actions.
Pro 6:16 These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him: Pro 6:17 A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, Pro 6:18An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief, Pro 6:19 A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.
Php 2:3 Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves.
Php 2:4 Look not every man on his own things, but every man also on the things of others.
"Vainglory" means "empty glorying" or "self conceit." To me it is arrogant and conceited to presume that YOU or YOUR church will have more to offer than the neighboring church or pastor, and to pursue other church members from that perspective. Even if you are right, your motives are wrong.
Yes...I do. because i believe the real issue is ownership...not where someone goes to church.
I believe it is God who will execute judgement on thier motives, vainglory, arrogance, etc...and not me...simply another sheep.
My point is...that it is not my place, right, or responsibilty to enforce God's Kingdom, His rules, His boundaries....He will do that.
regarding discord...i would not think someone is sowing discord if they said that XYZ church is better than mine...that is thier opinion....and they might just be right.
maybe i'm a wimp...or too soft-hearted...or hard-headed...but I believe if I do my job...God will provide me with the sheep that I'm suppose to feed. And the ones that wander off...they are His & I pray for God to bless and prosper them...and the ones who wander in...i do my best to love, feed, and nurture.
Yes...I do. because i believe the real issue is ownership...not where someone goes to church.
I believe it is God who will execute judgement on thier motives, vainglory, arrogance, etc...and not me...simply another sheep.
My point is...that it is not my place, right, or responsibilty to enforce God's Kingdom, His rules, His boundaries....He will do that.
regarding discord...i would not think someone is sowing discord if they said that XYZ church is better than mine...that is thier opinion....and they might just be right.
maybe i'm a wimp...or too soft-hearted...or hard-headed...but I believe if I do my job...God will provide me with the sheep that I'm suppose to feed. And the ones that wander off...they are His & I pray for God to bless and prosper them...and the ones who wander in...i do my best to love, feed, and nurture.
I understand (and pretty much agree) with what you're saying, but it sounds as if you (and DA) are just defending those who "steal sheep" (for lack of a better, more PC term).
__________________
"God, send me anywhere, only go with me. Lay any burden on me, only sustain me. And sever any tie in my heart except the tie that binds my heart to Yours."
--David Livingstone
"To see no being, not God’s or any, but you also go thither,
To see no possession but you may possess it—enjoying all without labor or purchase—
abstracting the feast, yet not abstracting one particle of it;…."
--Walt Whitman, Leaves of Grass, Song of the Open Road
I don't think there's any pastor who would like to see a fellow pastor targeting members of his congregation to build up his own membership.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MissBrattified
I KNOW of pastors who have put in serious effort to "woo" key people from other churches, because they needed a youth leader or sunday school teacher or just wanted bigger tithes payers. I don't care how you frame that, that is unethical and speaks ill of that pastor's character.
Well said.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Book 'em Dano
I am talking about an active campaign to get members of one church to join theirs....and you think the thing to do is attack the UPC pastor for being concerned about such actions? Do you think that what that church is doing is spiritually healthy?
Great question.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mrs. LPW
DA, perhaps it affects yours?
If this were your multi-cultural church that members were being targetted... you may have a different take on it completely.
Do you ever look at yourself and think... "I might actually be biased here"?
It's easier to see other people's biases than our own. Just human nature.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Praxeas
Getting back to the topic now....do you have any thoughts on the church and pastor that are actively targeting other Oneness churches to take people from those congregations to enlarge their own?
Do you think such a congregation/Pastor is a healthy one that does that without any care or concern how it might affect the people they are "taking" and the congregation they are dividing?
Bingo.
These questions cut to the core of the issue here.
__________________ http://endtimeobserver.blogspot.com
Daniel 12:3 And those who are wise shall shine like the brightness of the firmament; and those who turn many to righteousness, like the stars for ever.
Getting back to the topic now....do you have any thoughts on the church and pastor that are actively targetting other Oneness churches to take people from those congregations to enlarge their own?
Do you think such a congregation/Pastor is a healthy one that does that without any care or concern how it might affect the people they are "taking" and the congregation they are dividing?
yes....they are His servants...and I will not judge another's servant.
regarding the health of said church or pastor....again...He is one who knows all. what I may think is right and health....may not be what is right and health.
I have the utmost faith in our Father that He will work all things for the good...and if I hold my peace...then He will fight my battles.
They are His, no matter what. 
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