The Biblical response to ACTS 2:38

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Justin

Romans 8:9-11; (NIV) Emphasis are mine.

9 You (Spirit filled church in Rome, they had heard and obeyed Acts 2:38), however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God (Holy Ghost) lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ (Holy Ghost), he does not belong to Christ. (Meaning if you do not have the Holy Ghost, you do not belong to Christ.)

10 But if Christ is in you (Holy Ghost), your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness.

11 And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you(God's Spirit, aka, the Holy Ghost), he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you. (In other words, if you have the Holy Ghost, you will have immortal life, aka, go to heaven)

Let me clarify; just because someone has the Holy Ghost doesn't guarantee them entrance to heaven, Paul said we must endure to the end.

Isn't the Holy Ghost at work in their lives at the moment of conviction, faith, and repentance? Three steppers appear to think that the Holy Ghost comes into the picture when one is baptized with the Spirit. Not so. The Holy Ghost is received into someone's life by faith as they hear the Word, come to faith, are convicted of sin, repent of sin, seek to be water baptized, and then baptized with the power of the Spirit.

It's all the work of the Holy Ghost in one's life from start to finish.

[Justin]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Isn't the Holy Ghost at work in their lives at the moment of conviction, faith, and repentance? Three steppers appear to think that the Holy Ghost comes into the picture when one is baptized with the Spirit. Not so. The Holy Ghost is received into someone's life by faith as they hear the Word, come to faith, are convicted of sin, repent of sin, seek to be water baptized, and then baptized with the power of the Spirit.

It's all the work of the Holy Ghost in one's life from start to finish.

How does one know they have the Holy Ghost?

Acts 19:2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.

The folks believed in Jesus, but didn't have the Holy Ghost.

So to answer your question "Isn't the Holy Ghost at work in their lives at the moment of conviction, faith, and repentance?"

I would say no due to the context of Acts 19:1-6.

They had been preached "Jesus", but hadn't been baptized nor received the Holy Ghost. The people in Acts 19:1-6 had been taught the "one step salvation", since they "believed", but Paul clarified that they needed to be baptized and receive the Holy Ghost.

[snicker1986]

Originally Posted by Justin

How does one know they have the Holy Ghost?

Acts 19:2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.

The folks believed in Jesus, but didn't have the Holy Ghost.

So to answer your question "Isn't the Holy Ghost at work in their lives at the moment of conviction, faith, and repentance?"

I would say no due to the context of Acts 19:1-6.

They had been preached "Jesus", but hadn't been baptized nor received the Holy Ghost. The people in Acts 19:1-6 had been taught the "one step salvation", since they "believed", but Paul clarified that they needed to be baptized and receive the Holy Ghost.

I'm going way out on a limb here...

I was very active for years in "mainstream" church, and unlike many in pentecost, loved it, had a fantastic experience, and found God there.

I married a Pentecostal woman, have joined her church, and now have experinced a new a more vibrant faith community (and "recieved the Holy Ghost" and spoken in tongues).

Here's where I step on dangerous ground with some on here..

I can say (for sure) that I had recieved the Holy spirit in my prior church life, in a quiet, demoninational, trinitarian church. We put God in a box so easily, don't we? I knew right then that God was in my life, and was empowering me. I felt and knew his presence intimately.

When I spoke in tongues after coming to this church (and I have many times since then), it did feel a wonderful closeness to God, but other than the vocal expression, it esssentially felt NO DIFFERENT than that which I had already experienced when I had a move of the Holy Spirit in my life. When you get the Holy Spirit YOU KNOW IT! You don't need something to prove it to you, and you dont need to prove it to someone else.

Tongues is a wonderful closeness to God, and a sign of his presense and love, but I think God meets us how and where we are. We're the ones who box him in, and tell each other he can only meet us in a certain place or way. That's kind of the same thing the early Apostles did with their assumtions that the Holy Ghost would only come to Jews, and not Samaritans or Gentiles. Aren't we thankful they were wrong??

Just my own personal experience, so takeit for what it's worth.

[*AQuietPlace*]

Originally Posted by Justin

How does one know they have the Holy Ghost?

Acts 19:2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.

The folks believed in Jesus, but didn't have the Holy Ghost.

So to answer your question "Isn't the Holy Ghost at work in their lives at the moment of conviction, faith, and repentance?"

I would say no due to the context of Acts 19:1-6.

They had been preached "Jesus", but hadn't been baptized nor received the Holy Ghost. The people in Acts 19:1-6 had been taught the "one step salvation", since they "believed", but Paul clarified that they needed to be baptized and receive the Holy Ghost.

Are we sure that these people had already believed on Jesus? It says 'certain disciples', but doesn't specify 'disciples of Jesus'. It sounds like they could have been disciples of John who had not yet heard of Jesus:

1And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,

2He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.

3And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.

4Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.

5When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Justin

How does one know they have the Holy Ghost?

Acts 19:2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.

The folks believed in Jesus, but didn't have the Holy Ghost.

So to answer your question "Isn't the Holy Ghost at work in their lives at the moment of conviction, faith, and repentance?"

I would say no due to the context of Acts 19:1-6.

They had been preached "Jesus", but hadn't been baptized nor received the Holy Ghost. The people in Acts 19:1-6 had been taught the "one step salvation", since they "believed", but Paul clarified that they needed to be baptized and receive the Holy Ghost.

Let's look at Acts 19:1-6 closely...

Acts 19:1-6
1And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,
2He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
3And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
4Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
5When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
6And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

Here's what we see. Paul passed through the upper coasts and came to Ephesus. There he found "certain disciples". Paul asks them if they had received the Holy Ghost since they believed. They answer that they don't even know if there is a "Holy Ghost". Paul then asks unto what they were they baptized. They answer, "John's baptism". This means that they were distant disciples of John the Baptist. John's baptism wasn't Christian baptism. John's baptism was the "baptism of repentance", a Jewish baptism. These people were Jews who had repented as a result of John's message. Paul then tells them that John preached that they should believe on the one who came after him, that is on Christ Jesus. Obviously at this point they come to faith in Christ Jesus and are water baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Immediately after their conversion from Judaism to Christianity John lays hands on them and they receive the Holy Ghost.

So as you can see...these weren't Christian disciples. In fact, Apostolic Christianity was the only form of Christianity present. The Holy Ghost featured greatly in the early church, therefore it's inconceivable that these would have been Christians who didn't believe in the Holy Ghost. These were Ephesian Jews who received John's message and Paul preached Jesus to them.

Now, we know this, IT IS WRITTEN,

1 Corinthians 12:3
Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

Paul tells us in I Corinthians 12:3 that NO MAN can say that Jesus is Lord, but by the Holy Ghost. You see, it is the Holy Ghost that reveals Jesus to the wayward sinner. It is the Holy Ghost that convicts them of sin. It is the Holy Ghost that leads them to repentance. It is the Holy Ghost that they are then baptized with that they might receive empowerment to be witnesses into all the world.

The problem with the three-step notion is that it disregards the Holy Ghost's work from start to finish. They see the Holy Ghost as being strictly a factor in the third step of their three step liturgy in approaching the Lord. The truth is, the Holy Ghost is present and abiding from the moment one comes to faith in Christ Jesus, else they could never believe with a faith that pleases the Lord. Christianity isn't a three step recipe...it's a journey into greater and greater Christ likeness from child like faith to empowered faithfulness and obedience.

[BeenThinkin]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Isn't the Holy Ghost at work in their lives at the moment of conviction, faith, and repentance? Three steppers appear to think that the Holy Ghost comes into the picture when one is baptized with the Spirit. Not so. The Holy Ghost is received into someone's life by faith as they hear the Word, come to faith, are convicted of sin, repent of sin, seek to be water baptized, and then baptized with the power of the Spirit.

It's all the work of the Holy Ghost in one's life from start to finish.

Good post!

Been Thinkin

[snicker1986]

Originally Posted by Aquila

]

We know that the Holy Ghost was received and active in the disciples prior to Pentecost...

John 20:22
22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

This is an interesting point that I had never considered. There is no mention in John of them speaking in tongues at that moment. Surely the holy Ghost came right then, and didn't wait until pentecost to arrive. Had they spoken in tongues, surely that would have been noteworthy

[missourimary]

It is my understanding that John 20:22 was more prophetic and symbolic than anything

Symbolism: "He breathed on them" is symbolic of the breath of life of original creation, possibly a symbol of re-creation or rebirth.

And prophecy because there were people in the OT moved on by the Holy Ghost and filled with the Holy Ghost, including Saul, but what would come after Jesus' ascension would be something new and different, thus the mighty rushing wind.

Interestingly, there is a belief that Pentecost was the day the law was given to Moses on Sinai. It was a celebratory and joyful occassion, thus people thinking the disciples were drunk, even in the morning, might not have been a totally unreasonable assumption.

[*AQuietPlace*]

Originally Posted by missourimary

It is my understanding that John 20:22 was more prophetic and symbolic than anything

Symbolism: "He breathed on them" is symbolic of the breath of life of original creation, possibly a symbol of re-creation or rebirth.

And prophecy because there were people in the OT moved on by the Holy Ghost and filled with the Holy Ghost, including Saul, but what would come after Jesus' ascension would be something new and different, thus the mighty rushing wind.

Interestingly, there is a belief that Pentecost was the day the law was given to Moses on Sinai. It was a celebratory and joyful occassion, thus people thinking the disciples were drunk, even in the morning, might not have been a totally unreasonable assumption.

I don't know, this doesn't sound simply symbolic to me:

21Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.

22And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

23Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by missourimary

It is my understanding that John 20:22 was more prophetic and symbolic than anything

Symbolism: "He breathed on them" is symbolic of the breath of life of original creation, possibly a symbol of re-creation or rebirth.

And prophecy because there were people in the OT moved on by the Holy Ghost and filled with the Holy Ghost, including Saul, but what would come after Jesus' ascension would be something new and different, thus the mighty rushing wind.

Interestingly, there is a belief that Pentecost was the day the law was given to Moses on Sinai. It was a celebratory and joyful occassion, thus people thinking the disciples were drunk, even in the morning, might not have been a totally unreasonable assumption.

I'd be curious as to what the Greek says. If it was prophetic the "receive" in the verse would be future tense denoting an expectancy of future experience. However, if it's present tense it would require that the Spirit was indeed imparted to them when Jesus breathed upon them.