Let's talk about Baptism.

[seekerman]

Originally Posted by Sam

How many quotes from the Apocrypha are found in the writings of the Apostles that we call our New Testament?

Please list each one separately with both the OT (apocryphal book name, chapter and verse) and the corresponding NT (canonical book name, chapter and verse).

How many OT books aren't referenced in the NT? Does that mean they shouldn't be included in the bible....or used?

[NotforSale]

Originally Posted by UltraCon

Acts 17:30
And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

As cox said earlier,
Circumstances & "what's if's" don't change the word.

The question still remains; who is saved, and who isn't?

Until we can resolve this question with "In Fact" answers, the "What If's" will continue on every level of the Salvation issue.

All men, everywhere includes these unfortunate children sold into Sex Slavery.

Circumstances and "What If's" may not change what the Bible says, but interpreting what the Bible is saying will plague this Planet forever, and, circumstances, Culture, and upbringing do cause us to believe what the Bible is saying.

Also, removing the "What If's" of life will cause mercy and compassion to be removed from sound Theology and Faith regarding human life and understanding about God. With no tolerance, we will all sink into the darkness of ill passionate condemnation of the weak.

On another note, change in the Word is really an oxymoron. This has always baffled me. Old and New Testaments are worlds apart. In fact, the message Jesus taught conflicted so much with the Religious order of his day, they decided a crucifixion would stop this “Change” of the Word. The Sabbath, the Law, war and killing, marriage, the list is pages long if you read Leviticus regarding what we do today with the “Word”, and what the Jews did with the “Word”.

We may claim that the Word doesn't change, but we make it FIT.

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by Sam

How many quotes from the Apocrypha are found in the writings of the Apostles that we call our New Testament?

Please list each one separately with both the OT (apocryphal book name, chapter and verse) and the corresponding NT (canonical book name, chapter and verse).

How many quotes from the Masoretic Text of the OT appear in the NT? Please list each one separately with both the OT verse and the corresponding NT verse.

And then... how many quotes of the OT Septuagint can you find quoted in the NT? I have a database on the desktop computer that I need to transfer over to a thumb drive.

In any case, if your OT isn't the Septuagint like the apostles and later like St. Jerome used to create the Vulgate translation, then you are NOT using the OT that the apostles used.

[Sam]

Originally Posted by pelathais

...
In any case, if your OT isn't the Septuagint like the apostles and later like St. Jerome used to create the Vulgate translation, then you are NOT using the OT that the apostles used.

I'm not disagreeing with that. That's a reason why OT quotes in our NT read differently than they do in our OT if you go back and check. Our OT is based on the Masoretic text whereas the apostles and early Christian writers used the LXX.

And, I realize that the LXX (the text used by first century Christina writers) contained some Apocryphal books.

But my question was, how many times (chapter and verse) are there quotes from the Apocrypha in our NT?

I have a 1611 KJV. At Hebrews 11:35 there is a marginal note referencing 2 Mac 7:7. 1 and 2 Maccabees are included in that 1611 KJV. The reference is to the mother and sons who would not accept deliverance by denouncing Judaism because they looked forward to a resurrection.

Paul's questioning whether it would be better to continue living or dying in Philippians 1:23 is similar to Tobit 2:6

The instruction in James 5 about confessing sin and receiving prayer for healing is similar to Ecclesiasticus 38

These instances happen to come to mind off the top of my head. There may be more.

The reason for my question as to where these Apocryphal passages from the OT are quoted in the NT was to ascertain if there is a comprehensive cross reference type list available. I personally am not real familiar with some of the Apocryphal books. My Jerusalem Bible and my NEB have less of them than my NRSV

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Apocrypha

Book of the Covenant
Exodus 24:7 And he took the book of the covenant, and read in the audience of the people: and they said, All that the Lord hath said will we do, and be obedient.
There are those that believe the Book of the Covenant is found in Exodus chapters 20 through 23. There are no authoritative sources for this text.

I would not include this one in the list. As you noted from some, it's just the laws already noted in scripture. It is the record of the LAW in the covenant God gave on Sinai.

Jude, the Missing Epistle
Jude 1:3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

This is another one I would not list. Jude did not say he wrote another book, but was going to do so, when the Lord stopped him as he felt led to write about defending the faith instead. Maybe that is what is meant by the MISSING, though. Missing since it was never written.

[Apocrypha]

Originally Posted by mfblume

I would not include this one in the list. As you noted from some, it's just the laws already noted in scripture. It is the record of the LAW in the covenant God gave on Sinai.



This is another one I would not list. Jude did not say he wrote another book, but was going to do so, when the Lord stopped him as he felt led to write about defending the faith instead. Maybe that is what is meant by the MISSING, though. Missing since it was never written.

Jude does direct references to The Assumption of Moses and Enoch 1, part 1 The book of the Watchers.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Apocrypha

Jude does direct references to The Assumption of Moses and Enoch 1, part 1 The book of the Watchers.

I was speaking about the book Jude stated he was going to write himself.

But how do we know about the other books, though? Are these books allegedly ones that have been found and contain words Jude referenced? If so, who is to say someone did not notice some phrases Jude mentioned from other sources, and concocted a book of gobble-de-gook and inserted those phrases to make the books appear authentic?

A genuine book may have been genuine and lost because it did not concern anyone of any generation, as the rest of the Bible does. And if found, it would contain nothing we had to know in order to serve the Lord that another book of the bible did not mention anyway.

[Sam]

from pages 255-258 of Bro. Segrave’s book on 2 Peter and Jude:

Verse 14. At this point, commentators generally conclude that Jude quoted from the pseudepigraphical book, I Enoch, written during the early first century B.C. (c. 95 B.C.). I Enoch was well-known among the Jewish people during the first century A.D....In some cases, Jewish tradition accurately preserved information not found in the Old Testament Scriptures.

This would not be the only place where the New Testament legitimizes Jewish traditions not found in the Old Testament....

Not only did Paul endorse Jewish tradition when it was true and suited his purpose; he also quoted pagan poets when their statements were true and useful. In Acts 17:28, Paul quoted Cleanthes and Aratus. In I Corinthians 15:33, he quoted Menander. In Titus 1:12, Paul quoted Epimenides.

It is not problematic that inspired writers would quote uninspired writers. Neither should we think that by quoting someone, inspired writers conferred inspiration on the person they quoted. The writers of Scripture, though inspired by God, were people of their times. They used illustrations and information well-known to their readers to make a point, just as writers and speakers do today. Inspiration means that what they wrote has authoritative status; even if it includes material from noninspired sources, it is accurate and trustworthy....

Although Jude never identifies I Enoch as Scripture, it does declare that Enoch prophesied. To prophesy is to speak authoritatively on behalf of God. (See Exodus 7:1.) Holy men uttered many prophecies during the Old
Testament era that were never written down by those who uttered them; this is one of them.

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by Sam

I'm not disagreeing with that. That's a reason why OT quotes in our NT read differently than they do in our OT if you go back and check. Our OT is based on the Masoretic text whereas the apostles and early Christian writers used the LXX.

And, I realize that the LXX (the text used by first century Christina writers) contained some Apocryphal books.

But my question was, how many times (chapter and verse) are there quotes from the Apocrypha in our NT?

I have a 1611 KJV. At Hebrews 11:35 there is a marginal note referencing 2 Mac 7:7. 1 and 2 Maccabees are included in that 1611 KJV. The reference is to the mother and sons who would not accept deliverance by denouncing Judaism because they looked forward to a resurrection.

Paul's questioning whether it would be better to continue living or dying in Philippians 1:23 is similar to Tobit 2:6

The instruction in James 5 about confessing sin and receiving prayer for healing is similar to Ecclesiasticus 38

These instances happen to come to mind off the top of my head. There may be more.

The reason for my question as to where these Apocryphal passages from the OT are quoted in the NT was to ascertain if there is a comprehensive cross reference type list available. I personally am not real familiar with some of the Apocryphal books. My Jerusalem Bible and my NEB have less of them than my NRSV

I'm some what limited resource wise right now; got a big party going on. I concur about the reference in Hebrews, that was a well known citation. Of course Peter and Jude's citations of the Book of Enoch are well known - not so well known are the applications that many have made concerning 1 Corinthians 11, with the Book of Enoch as well.

The Apocrypha of the RCC OT was included in the original KJV editions, even though the rest of the OT was drawn from the Masoretic Text tradition and not the Septuagint. Interestingly, no one seems to have wanted to include the controversial Book of Enoch in spite of the fact that it was so clearly used and cited.

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by mfblume

I was speaking about the book Jude stated he was going to write himself.

But how do we know about the other books, though? Are these books allegedly ones that have been found and contain words Jude referenced? If so, who is to say someone did not notice some phrases Jude mentioned from other sources, and concocted a book of gobble-de-gook and inserted those phrases to make the books appear authentic?

A genuine book may have been genuine and lost because it did not concern anyone of any generation, as the rest of the Bible does. And if found, it would contain nothing we had to know in order to serve the Lord that another book of the bible did not mention anyway.

The Book of Enoch is known by history and other writers who predate the writings of the NT. The fragments of Enoch found at Qumran dated from about 200 BC. This would render your "gobble-de-gook" hypothesis invalid. The fragments are extensive enough to allow us to see that the Essenes used a version of Enoch that was more extensive than the Ethiopian ones that were heretofore the oldest sources of this work.