Revival The Missing Link?

[*AQuietPlace*]

Originally Posted by Hoovie

You are correct, rumspringa as practiced by us and most Amish too, is not at all like the Devil's Playground portrayed it.

So what is it like?

Do you think it's a good thing? I wonder if the retention of Pentecostal youth would be better if they practiced something similar.

Not that that would ever happen, since leaving the lifestyle is considered "sin", and they would consider the kids hell-bound if they died during that time.

[Hoovie]

Originally Posted by Digging4Truth

According to the video you shared earlier in the thread the Amish consider it brazen and almost prideful or boastful to share the gospel with others.

That would leave growth through family growth as the main option.

Originally Posted by crakjak

I was referring to the couples in the video, that were questioning, and reading the Bible for themselves. This always creates problems with the "elders". It is just unbelievable that leaders could "shun" such passion and hunger for truth, what happens if the elders hear and join the search???

Originally Posted by Baron1710

My daughter made a comment that pretty much summed up my feeling when watching these videos, "They sound like the Roman Church of the dark ages."

The fact that they are forbidden to read and study the Bible is an amazing tool of Satan. While the folks in the video had genuine faith it makes me wonder how many Amish have a genuine faith in Christ and how many simply have a list of rules.

Originally Posted by Baron1710

The point they made in the videos was that they read it in old German and really don't understand what they are reading.

Originally Posted by Digging4Truth

The gentleman on the video said that they are forbidden to have personal bible studies or prayer meetings outside the normal meetings of the congregation. This seems to refer to Bible studies & prayer meetings where several families get together rather than personal study in ones own home by ones self.

Something made clear in the videos that might be pertinent as well. The rules vary from group to group so you may know someone who is in a group that allows this while the group these gentlemen are in might not allow it.

Originally Posted by whoami

I see.

Yes, the rules do vary from group to group, each has their own Ordnung. The group I live near does their devotions in the version of Dutch that they use every day, so their Bible reading and devotions are very well understood and discussed.

I don't think there is prohibition against reading the Bible in particular. There is definitely a general consensus that the Old German Scriptures should hold a special place in church assembly, as does the practice of preaching and speaking in the Penn. Dutch/German dialect.

This presents a real problem of comprehension from their most sacred text. Because the progression and infiltration of English into the language and the lack of clarity in the old German Bibles, English is now the better choice for the younger generations.

There are reasons why the Amish view independent study and community Bible studies with skepticism. Many Amish who were "converted" by the traveling tent revivalists in the mid 20th century summarily discarded their conservative lifestyles and solicited other Amish to follow suit. The resulting response from the church was a crackdown against these "Bible Studies". They were seen as nothing more than a ruse to hide the true intent of those wanting reason to depart from the community anyway.

That is why the two families in the video are unique and they likely have wide influence within the community. Though excommunicated, they are not at all eager to discard the Amish culture.

[*AQuietPlace*]

Hoovie, you mentioned that you could see a few compelling reasons for yourself to return. What are those?

[*AQuietPlace*]

While the agrarian, simpler lifestyle does seem ideal sometimes, I wonder how beneficial, in the long run it really is. It seems like every time a group of people tries to "get back" to an older lifestyle, it's not long before the group has become exclusive and develops a lot of problems. For many, a different way of life than theirs soon becomes labeled 'sinful'. They soon become unable to 'relate' to people of other lifestyles, making witnessing very difficult. Plus, your witnessing is often limited to - 'Come join my lifestyle'.

I wonder if God wants us looking back to 'better days' so often, or if he wants us to learn to flourish in our own generation, in our own time period, with our current technologies and culture?

[Hoovie]

Originally Posted by *AQuietPlace*

Hoovie, you mentioned that you could see a few compelling reasons for yourself to return. What are those?

Divorce and disintegration of the family hovers near zero percent. (I know there are those cases that make national headlines - but the reason why they are big stories is because that is very very much the exception)

Family means everything.

Individualism is sacrificed for the family and community.

Here is expert, Professor Kraybill, making sense of the plain people and their resistance to embrace modern lifestyles.

I recommend to start watching at 42:00

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GuecF...ayer_embedded#

!

[Baron1710]

Originally Posted by Hoovie

Divorce and disintegration of the family hovers near zero percent. (I know there are those cases that make national headlines - but the reason why they are big stories is because that is very very much the exception)

Family means everything.

Individualism is sacrificed for the family and community.

Here is expert, Professor Kraybill, making sense of the plain people and their resistance to embrace modern lifestyles.

I recommend to start watching at 42:00

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GuecF...ayer_embedded#

!

Hoovie,

I doubt this is the norm but I just talked to a lady this afternoon that left her husband and the Amish community after many years of physical abuse from her husband. How does the Amish community handle this? She didn't mention if the community knew but unless you are blind people usually know.

[Hoovie]

Originally Posted by *AQuietPlace*

While the agrarian, simpler lifestyle does seem ideal sometimes, I wonder how beneficial, in the long run it really is. It seems like every time a group of people tries to "get back" to an older lifestyle, it's not long before the group has become exclusive and develops a lot of problems. For many, a different way of life than theirs soon becomes labeled 'sinful'. They soon become unable to 'relate' to people of other lifestyles, making witnessing very difficult. Plus, your witnessing is often limited to - 'Come join my lifestyle'.

I wonder if God wants us looking back to 'better days' so often, or if he wants us to learn to flourish in our own generation, in our own time period, with our current technologies and culture?

Very well said AQP!

...and hence my struggle even now is to find balance between the Mennonite separatists and the permissive modernists.

[Hoovie]

Originally Posted by Baron1710

Hoovie,

I doubt this is the norm but I just talked to a lady this afternoon that left her husband and the Amish community after many years of physical abuse from her husband. How does the Amish community handle this? She didn't mention if the community knew but unless you are blind people usually know.

I am sure the response of the church is evolving just as all churches seem to have on this issue. Spousal abuse is not condoned. I have a family member who was subject to some abuse. We can along side her and took her to a shelter while the issue was worked out and the the perpetrator received professional help.

[Baron1710]

Originally Posted by Hoovie

I am sure the response of the church is evolving just as all churches seem to have on this issue. Spousal abuse is not condoned. I have a family member who was subject to some abuse. We can along side her and took her to a shelter while the issue was worked out and the the perpetrator received professional help.

Why was it you chose not to follow the ways of the old order?

[*AQuietPlace*]

Originally Posted by Hoovie

Family means everything.

Individualism is sacrificed for the family and community.

Do you think individualism being sacrificed for family and community is necessarily a good thing? I can see a whole lot of problems with that approach.

Real progress is usually always brought about by 'individuals'. People who are willing to step out. Error multiplies and is difficult to eradicate if everyone is subjugating themselves to keeping the peace with family and community.

Selfishness is not a good thing. Insisting on your own way, even if it's damaging to others. But just being a face in the crowd doesn't change the world, either. Jesus didn't seem to advocate not rocking the boat.

Taking care of family, absolutely. Jesus mandated that. But sacrificing your own individuality..... I'm not sure how profitable that is.