Where has Grace and Love gone...

[LUKE2447]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Interesting thoughts on Grace (Romans Verse-by-Verse William R. Newell):

A FEW WORDS ABOUT GRACE

I
The Nature of Grace
1. Grace is God acting freely, according to His own nature as Love; with no promises or
obligations to fulfil; and acting of course, righteously—in view of the cross.
2. Grace, therefore, is uncaused in the recipient: its cause lies wholly in the GIVER, in GOD.
3. Grace, also is sovereign. Not having debts to pay, or fulfilled conditions on man’s part to
wait for, it can act toward whom, and how, it pleases. It can, and does, often, place the worst
deservers in the highest favors.
4. Grace cannot act where there is either desert or ability: Grace does not help—it is absolute,
it does all.
5. There being no cause in the creature why Grace should be shown, the creature must be
brought off from trying to give cause to God for His Grace.
6. The discovery by the creature that he is truly the object of Divine grace, works the utmost
humility: for the receiver of grace is brought to know his own absolute unworthiness, and his
complete inability to attain worthiness: yet he finds himself blessed,—on another principle, outside
of himself!
7. Therefore, flesh has no place in the plan of Grace. This is the great reason why Grace is
hated by the proud natural mind of man. But for this very reason, the true believer rejoices! For he
knows that “in him, that is, in his flesh, is no good thing”; and yet he finds God glad to bless him,
just as he is!

II
The Place of Man under Grace
1. He has been accepted in Christ, who is his standing!
2. He is not “on probation.”
3. As to his life past, it does not exist before God: he died at the Cross, and Christ is his life.
4. Grace, once bestowed, is not withdrawn: for God knew all the human exigencies beforehand:
His action was independent of them, not dependent upon them.
5. The failure of devotion does not cause the withdrawal of bestowed grace (as it would under
law). For example: the man in I Cor. 5:1-5; and also those in 11:30-32, who did not “judge”
themselves, and so were “judged by the Lord,—that they might not be condemned with the world”!

III
The Proper Attitude of Man under Grace
1. To believe, and to consent to be loved while unworthy, is the great secret.
2. To refuse to make “resolutions” and “vows”; for that is to trust in the flesh.
3. To expect to be blessed, though realizing more and more lack of worth.
4. To testify of God’s goodness, at all times.
5. To be certain of God’s future favor; yet to be ever more tender in conscience toward Him.
6. To rely on God’s chastening hand as a mark of His kindness.
7. A man under grace, if like Paul, has no burdens regarding himself; but many about others.

IV
Things Which Gracious Souls Discover
1. To “hope to be better” is to fail to see yourself in Christ only.
2. To be disappointed with yourself, is to have believed in yourself.
3. To be discouraged is unbelief,—as to God’s purpose and plan of blessing for you.
4. To be proud, is to be blind! For we have no standing before God, in ourselves.
5. The lack of Divine blessing, therefore, comes from unbelief, and not from failure of devotion.
6. Real devotion to God arises, not from man’s will to show it; but from the discovery that
blessing has been received from God while we were yet unworthy and undevoted.
7. To preach devotion first, and blessing second, is to reverse God’s order, and preach law, not
grace. The Law made man’s blessing depend on devotion; Grace confers undeserved, unconditional
blessing: our devotion may follow, but does not always do so,—in proper measure.

I see you still live in reformed world.

[Dagwood]

Originally Posted by LUKE2447

I see you still live in reformed world.

Isn't that better than living in deformed world?

[Jack Shephard]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Out west here? lol I live in So Cal...West. What church are you going to?

I live in AZ, but I am in LA for a few days right now.

[Jack Shephard]

Originally Posted by AreYouReady?

I don't know where I'd be if God did not answer prayers for me. Walking with Jesus is a very personal experience for me. Nobody has a monopoly on our Savior, I learned.

I was born again in a UPC Church that was very loving...or maybe it was the new and the love of Christ that I felt. It all fell apart when the church spilt over ...tithing and pastoring. Then the pastor committed adultery and that put everybody in a turmoil.

So I try to keep my eyes off people ... and what they say...what they do so that I am not side-tracked. It would be easy for me to be embittered by some of my UPC experiences, but I know that not all UPC members hurt people or put a microscope on other people's lives. Those who do are meddling in other people's lives. The bible speaks something about that subject.

I would only be hurting myself if I allowed what other people say to embed their words into my heart.

Above all...I must make it to heaven regardless of what anybody throws my way.

Well said. What I am talking about is more that there can be no community or culture established when there is no grace and love. I say that because it is nearly impossible at the very least improbable that someone will want to stay in a place they aren't loved and feel they can grow. Having a relationship with God is the most important thing, but when someone wants and needs to be loved and they go to church where love is supposed to be and there isn't love there is only judgement....who would wanna stay around that?

[AreYouReady?]

Originally Posted by JTULLOCK

I say that because it is nearly impossible at the very least improbable that someone will want to stay in a place they aren't loved and feel they can grow. Having a relationship with God is the most important thing, but when someone wants and needs to be loved and they go to church where love is supposed to be and there isn't love there is only judgement....who would wanna stay around that?

It is impossible, JT, that's why I left the UPC.

When I got to the point where I felt worse after attending services than before I came, that's when I felt the people's attitude in the church system towards me was interfering with my attitude of what *I* was supposed to be as a christian. I was finding a root of bitterness springing up when church people would hug their friends, but could not find a kind word towards me because I am a different sort of person than they are.

I used to wonder why I couldn't be loved despite our differences. I was willing to let others be who they are, believe what convictions they wanted to have and love them for who they are. I was not a mirror image of sister so-and-so. I was me.

[Jack Shephard]

Originally Posted by AreYouReady?

It is impossible, JT, that's why I left the UPC.

When I got to the point where I felt worse after attending services than before I came, that's when I felt the people's attitude in the church system towards me was interfering with my attitude of what *I* was supposed to be as a christian. I was finding a root of bitterness springing up when church people would hug their friends, but could not find a kind word towards me because I am a different sort of person than they are.

I used to wonder why I couldn't be loved despite our differences. I was willing to let others be who they are, believe what convictions they wanted to have and love them for who they are. I was not a mirror image of sister so-and-so. I was me.

I agree with you. What seems to happen, from my POV, is most of the churches figure it out when it is too late if they figure it out at all. Some are able to make the change and it better their atmosphere and they grow and produced changed lives. It's a sad waste of talent and time when this happens because if the UPC loved like they are able to then no way they would be hemorraging people like it is. Sorry to say that, but it is the truth.

[AreYouReady?]

UPC around here probably won't figure it out. Instead, it is said of people who leave...they backslid...their attitude is bad...they don't ilke authority...I heard a few excuses heresay as to why my husband and I left...some were completely way off base. But...nobody wanted to hear it from our mouths why we left so they made things up. They simply did not care enough to ask.

[Jack Shephard]

Originally Posted by AreYouReady?

UPC around here probably won't figure it out. Instead, it is said of people who leave...they backslid...their attitude is bad...they don't ilke authority...I heard a few excuses heresay as to why my husband and I left...some were completely way off base. But...nobody wanted to hear it from our mouths why we left so they made things up. They simply did not care enough to ask.

Remember, pentecostal won't let truth stand in the way of a good story....

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by LUKE2447

I see you still live in reformed world.

From my understanding William Newell wasn't truly Reformed.

He was big on exchanged life concepts with regards to grace and Christian living.

[Praxeas]

You guys really know how to milk that sweeping generalization. Where is the love?