Nothing about BOTT on here???

[seekerman]

Originally Posted by scotty

I can speak of this as the one has past.

It was a second cousin of mine, born and raised in the church. She backslid, came back, backslid, came back, etc. etc.

During one of her backslid periods she came to a revival. The visiting preacher walked back to her during alter call and told her, if she didn't make up her mind to come back to God where she knew she belonged her child would be born with problems and she would suffer greatly.

He did this quietly, we know what was said because she repeated it mockingly several times over the next few weeks. 9 months later she gave birth to a metally retarded daughter. 2 years later she died painfully after a long hospital stay for complications due to alcoholism. She would have seizures so strong her eyes would literally pop out. She died during one of those seizures.

I guess eventually God will give you over to your sin.

She exceeded her 7 times 70, eh?

[deltaguitar]

Originally Posted by Jay

Scotty, a number of people would not believe what you have said, however I know that my own father has done this with people. I know of two examples.

There was a lady who my father won through his job. God did many marvelous things, and convicted her of wearing pants, makeup, jewelery, cutting her hair, etc. without ever hearing it preached over the pulpit. She would ask questions of him every week about the standards. She saw the Oneness of God and baptism in Jesus' name almost immediately. However, she married a man who was not Pentecostal, but Charismatic who drew her away from everything that God had shown her. When they finally came to tell my father, their pastor, that they would not be coming back, he sat with them in his office and laid out a list of things that would happen if they left. One of the last things that he said was this, "You can walk out those doors, but when you do God will not show you anymore truth. You can go to other churches, and you will hear a little truth here and a little there, but it will not do you any good." Sometime later, the two of them divorced, and she started returning to her sinful life (and she had a reputation in the plant for sin). One day the man that she had married walked up to Dad while they were working and said, "Everything you told us would happen after you left has come to pass exactly as you said. I am sorry." I do not know whether or not he ever got right with God after this conversation. I pray he did, although it was not at our church while we were there. A number of weeks later Dad was walking by her work station to get a part that he needed and stopped. He looked at her and said, "We love you, we miss you, and we want you to come back home." That was on the last shift he worked before the weekend. Sunday morning she was in church. On Sunday night, she told Dad that she had been going to kill herself that very afternoon because she knew the sins that she had committed before she was in the church, and saw herself returning, and knew that she was becoming worse than before. She said that she never wanted to return to that lifestyle, and so she was going to end it all. She prayed through and got right with God. I do not know the end of her story as it was not yet finished when we left. I do know that for a number of years she stayed in that church. However, our family lost track of her eventually, and now only God knows what the end of the story is.

That was one that ended on a happy note, but I have another that did not end nearly so well.

There was a man in a church that we were attending, God had delivered him from drugs and alcohol, but this man had cycled through the church for years. He wold pray through, receive deliverance, and then after a number of months backslide. He would do this many times. One Saturday night during the church prayer meeting, my father sat with him and told him, "God has said that His Spirit will not always strive with man. If you walk out of those doors again (understood to mean backsliding), you may return, but God will not ever deal with you again." The man stayed for a few more months I believe, but he left the church. When he returned, it was visible that God would not touch him. I watched people cry under conviction, and he would stand with his head down unmoved and ashamed. Eventually he and a friend were arrested for having sex with minors, and placed in a maximum detention facility (the very one we had in town). It is possible that with the number of charges he was convicted of, he could still be behind bars yet.

It is post like this that makes me angry. It is horrible judgement to tell a person that if they backslide that God will never deal with them again. Even if God told you something like this that is not the way to plead with a sinner. The gospel should be proclaimed but to tell a person if they walk away it will be the last time is fear mongering and borders on manipulation to say the least.

That is highly toxic behavior and playing havoc on the weak minded.

It is not our responsibility to proclaim judgement on people but to preach the word. Why didn't this man feel like he could confess his sin to the people in the church, why didn't he feel grace and mercy, why did he come back yet hold his head in shame believing that God would not deal with him? The church let this man down.

I hope your dad repents and begs for mercy that that man wasn't given. He needs to find that man and repent and ask for forgiveness and maybe there is time for his soul to be saved.

[Jay]

You are incorrect. The man was told to repent and warned of coming judgment. I know that impending judgment is not a topic that people like to speak of, however it is as much a necessary message as the grace of God, and the blood Jesus shed upon the Cross. This was a man who knew how to live right, and for many years (more than I know) had been playing games with God, and God was finished, and used my father to tell him that.

John the Baptist, Jesus, and the Apostles all preached judgment if sinners did not repent and warned of the dangers of backsliders. There message is found throughout the epistles. Read your Bible before saying that a man of God is not to warn when God is finished messing with a sinner.

[deltaguitar]

Originally Posted by Jay

You are incorrect. The man was told to repent and warned of coming judgment. I know that impending judgment is not a topic that people like to speak of, however it is as much a necessary message as the grace of God, and the blood Jesus shed upon the Cross. This was a man who knew how to live right, and for many years (more than I know) had been playing games with God, and God was finished, and used my father to tell him that.

John the Baptist, Jesus, and the Apostles all preached judgment if sinners did not repent and warned of the dangers of backsliders. There message is found throughout the epistles. Read your Bible before saying that a man of God is not to warn when God is finished messing with a sinner.

Living right? Have you ever heard of David, Moses, or even Paul for that matter. Those men did 10 times worse than anything that man did. Where does this doctrine come from that you can tell a person that God is through dealing with them? You call sinners to repent, you don't tell them that if they don't repent this second God is not going to deal with them.

If it happened like this your dad will be held accountable in the judgement. Maybe you are just stretching the truth, I sure hope so.

[scotty]

Originally Posted by deltaguitar

Living right? Have you ever heard of David, Moses, or even Paul for that matter. Those men did 10 times worse than anything that man did. Where does this doctrine come from that you can tell a person that God is through dealing with them? You call sinners to repent, you don't tell them that if they don't repent this second God is not going to deal with them.

If it happened like this your dad will be held accountable in the judgement. Maybe you are just stretching the truth, I sure hope so.

Maybe you will be judged as your judging his father ? Judging is a tight rope no one cares to walk.

If we were speaking of new believers, possible believers, one or two time backsliders, then I would tend to agree with you delta. But unfortunately we are not, we are talking about those in the church (and every church has at least a couple) that know the truth, have lived the truth, have held positions of leadership even.... but turn away from it all when it suits them. then come back, etc etc.

These need to be warned. Some don't take heed , yet I have seen some take the warning and crawl back to God.

[Jay]

Scotty, this is true. I watched that type of message go forth time and again warning backsliders sitting in the pew to change their ways warning them of coming jugment. I believe that this man sat there through many of those messages, but still insisted on playing games with God.

I knew a family in Kansas. The lady had lived for God for years (they are related to that other family I mentioned earlier), but her husband was ever in and out. One service night a visiting preacher told her, "If you move, your children will backslide." She did not heed the warning, and both of her children left the church. I still pray for this family often.

[deltaguitar]

Originally Posted by scotty

Maybe you will be judged as your judging his father ? Judging is a tight rope no one cares to walk.

If we were speaking of new believers, possible believers, one or two time backsliders, then I would tend to agree with you delta. But unfortunately we are not, we are talking about those in the church (and every church has at least a couple) that know the truth, have lived the truth, have held positions of leadership even.... but turn away from it all when it suits them. then come back, etc etc.

These need to be warned. Some don't take heed , yet I have seen some take the warning and crawl back to God.

Are we talking about wolves in sheep clothing or are we talking about people who just wanted to have a TV?

Is it possible that these people may have loved Jesus but couldn't line up to the church standards? Sanctification is a long process and is not our work, but the Holy Spirit's work. Some people struggle with sin and some are just not born again.

[deltaguitar]

Originally Posted by Jay

Scotty, this is true. I watched that type of message go forth time and again warning backsliders sitting in the pew to change their ways warning them of coming jugment. I believe that this man sat there through many of those messages, but still insisted on playing games with God.

I knew a family in Kansas. The lady had lived for God for years (they are related to that other family I mentioned earlier), but her husband was ever in and out. One service night a visiting preacher told her, "If you move, your children will backslide." She did not heed the warning, and both of her children left the church. I still pray for this family often.

What was the warning? Was it not to move to another town? This is typical manipulation and is prevalent in toxic environments.

Let me ask you a question? How many members are at these churches you are talking about?