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  #51  
Old 09-21-2012, 11:15 AM
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ILG ILG is offline
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Re: Catholicism & Women

Almost all of my maternal family are Catholic and they are some of the greatest people I know! Loving, non-judgmental, good all around people. Too bad I was unable to spend much time around them growing up
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  #52  
Old 09-21-2012, 11:17 AM
AreYouReady? AreYouReady? is offline
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Re: Catholicism & Women

My sister and I had an argument more than once about the veneration of Mary. It always turns into an argument regardless of how gingerly I approach the subject because she venerates Mary so well and so completely that she cannot fathom the great power that comes from the shed blood of Christ. It just dawned on me that maybe she feels she receives her 'empowerment' from Mary? I find that just backwards.

The Catholic church does teach about the shed blood of Christ, but somehow, in my experience, it does not seem to focus on that power. At least that is my experience in the RCC church I grew up in.

Back to my sister...she venerates Mary so much that she has a "shrine" in her home to Mary in the form of one of these water fountains, with a statute of Mary beside it on a pedestal, with piles and piles of pine cones around the statute. When I try to tell her about the history of why Catholics venerate her so much, I can see the brick wall being built rapidly like the Bugs Bunny cartoons where ol Bugsy happens to have brick and mortar nearby and rapidly builds the wall before his enemy runs into it. (lol)

The plain fact is that the RCC system is a universal system and it was put into place by Rome so that the people can worship whatever gods ( RCC saints) they wish to pray to.

Side note: Someone once made a statement to me that the Christians back in that day were not persecuted for worshiping Christ, but that they were persecuted because they refused to worship and recognize any of the other little dieties along with Christ. People were supposed to have given the same worship to other people's gods. Sort of like today...we are not supposed to criticize Mohammed, Hindu, Buddism and all the other various idols, but to revere them along with Christ. That is what the Masons do I am told. ....ain't gonna happen with me.

Ancient religions worshiped the madonna and child. Perhaps Mary morphed into just another name for the entity of Diana or Ashtaroth /Astarte?

Ashtaroth in ancient times was the "Queen of Heaven" in Jeremiah 7:17 ¶Seest thou not what they do in the cities of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem?
18 The children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead their dough, to make cakes to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto other gods, that they may provoke me to anger. This is one type of the pagan worship that God hated so much, especially since the people He loved so much descended out of Abraham's loins and because of the promise He made to Abraham.

The RCC considers Mary to be the "queen of heaven" and my sister told me "absolutely, she is". I take that thought process very seriously.

In all fairness to Mary, I think that she would be appalled if she were walking this earth today to know how many people venerate her. I do not believe that she would want this celebrity status because she was a very humble woman who loved, worshipped and feared God.

So...although I feel spiritually wounded by both organized church systems I was worshiping in, I could never return to the RCC because of the Mary veneration, as well as the praying to the other "saints". I consider it to be idol worship. There is only one man...that man Jesus Christ of whom I could ever worship because he is God Incarnate and there are no other gods before or alongside my Creator.

And although I was hurt much, much worse by some people in the Spirit-filled Apostolic movement, it would be the only organized church system I would even consider returning to. I cannot change OPs from within. I tried that once not realizing that they consider that to be usurping man's authority and will not consider going into that battle again. But if there was an OP church in my area out there who actually does not take the clergy/laity paradigm to the extreme that many, but not all UPC churches do, and more to the equal brotherhood as Jesus told his disciples to do, then I would run to it for worshipping of my Jesus in a heartbeat! There just are not any in my region.

And lastly, some here would probably stone me to death, but I would consider trinitarian churches to worship Christ in because what drew me to the OP churches in the beginning was the love of Christ that I felt among the brothers and sisters there. People change...God does not. If that same love is to be found in a trinny church, I would go and worship Christ. Until then...my home is my closet. My fellow outcasts who are likewise believers are my fellowship.
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  #53  
Old 09-21-2012, 12:06 PM
Titus2woman Titus2woman is offline


 
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Re: Catholicism & Women

I guess that there are as many takes on Catholicism as there are on any religion. We were taught that Mary was honored as the mother of God but was not God. Indeed we were taught that the creed of the One Holy and Apostolic Catholic Chruch was the Nicene creed that does not even mention Mary excpet to say that Jesus Christ was born of a Virgin. We were taught about the saints that while those who lived and died in Christ are no longer available to us on earth they are known to God in heaven and are able to interceed for us with prayers... In essence that we could pray 'through' the saints for intercession the way that we would pray now with a trusted friend... Difference being that we could know that our saints had died in the faith whereas we can never really 'know' the hearts of men.

There are many things I object to about Catholic teachings, a prime example being transubstantiation or the theology that says that the bread and wine of communion actually BECOMES the body and blood of Christ, confession and pennance, the inability of priests and nuns to marry, etc. So today I am not a practicing Catholic because with the RCC you are either in or out. I disagree with some things about Oneness Pentecostalism as expressed here in the past but was never excommunicated... so a Pentecostal I remain.
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  #54  
Old 09-21-2012, 10:56 PM
AreYouReady? AreYouReady? is offline
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Re: Catholicism & Women

Yes, because it is universal religion back in the 2nd Century. But, since you brought up the praying to the saints issue...

We never even had a bible in the house to read for ourselves what the written Word says. I think that had something to do with Vatican I rules. We were given a family "Missle" book which had in it all they wanted us to know. We never took a bible to church for guidance, it was the 'missle' that was taken to the mass.

But in 1962, they went to Vatican II rules and many things changed. It is too lengthy to post here so if anybody has any interest, google has many hits about the Vatican.

Just a little story here:
When I was a single, 20-year-old young lady and seeking God, I met a very nice young single man back during the days where there were still service stations. He pumped my gas then spent his free time driving around until he saw my car parked at where I lived to ask me out. We went out on a date. It was then that I learned he was a JW. I thought drats! The nicest man I ever met (at the time) is a JW. But I didn't have to worry about that for too long. His mother threw such a big fit and forbade him to date me again unless I converted to the JW religion. She called me a 'catholic devil'.
I was not a devout catholic and was very susceptible for a change in religion since I was seeking God. But you know, I fully believe God was protecting me from false religions because as much as I really liked this young man, I turned down the demand and walked away. One date and I was expected to change religions without thorough examination of the religion.

My point is that I was called a catholic devil by his mother and she never even met me. She judged me by my faith. I did not feel like I was a devil...maybe a confused young lady, but not a devil. I almost forgot about this incident, but now glad that I remember because I do not want to judge anybody to be a *devil* because of their faith, even if I believe their religion is a false religion. I grew up this way and knew nothing else.

So now since I read so many scriptures that clash with the catholic doctrine, I can never return to that faith, yet I struggle to not be disrespectful to the people who agree with that faith. There are many, many kind people who are RCs, and I feel sad because there is so much more for them through Christ and the Holy Spirit if they could just see past all the RCC dogma.

When I read for myself in the bible that we can go boldly before the throne of grace to obtain mercy and help in the time of need, (paraphrased Hebrews 4:16) I know that we do not have to pray to any other entity (saints) for help in our needs. We can go directly to the throne of Christ.
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  #55  
Old 09-21-2012, 11:29 PM
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Michael The Disciple Michael The Disciple is offline
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Re: Catholicism & Women

All believers should call Mary blessed.
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  #56  
Old 09-22-2012, 07:11 AM
DaveC519 DaveC519 is offline
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Re: Catholicism & Women

Hello MissBrattified,
Quote:
Originally Posted by MissBrattified View Post
Reposted from my facebook page for discussion:

A couple of interesting comments from Catholic women:

"I was taken by surprise how much healing has taken place inside myself, my marriage, and my feelings about motherhood as a result of being immersed in a culture that gives great honor to the God bearer. It still amazes me how much value is given to strong [women]."

"I cannot even BEGIN to list how learning to understand Mary and venerating her has helped me be a better mother and wife. The effects of being submersed in this Catholic Culture has helped my marriage, 100% and it's not in some submissive way, these men (husbands and priests alike) are devoted to the Holy Mother. That devotion spills over to the other women in their lives. I've never felt so empowered as a woman and a wife."


Don't worry; I'm not looking to convert to Catholicism. However, I thought these comments were intriguing, and I wonder at the disrespect for women in general that seems common in some denominations--doctrines that focus on the failure of Eve, the alleged inherent weakness [of character?] of women and the woman's seemingly inferior position to her husband and authority figures. I'm not for deifying Mary, but I do acknowledge that God bestowed a great honor upon women and Mary in particular by using her to bring His flesh into the world. Does a disrespect for women in Christianity begin with a lack of regard for how God honored women in history? What are your thoughts? Any reactions to the posted comments?
I wonder if this "culture" of Mary veneration could be labeled matrifocal (as opposed to matriarchal). IDK.

Quote:
doctrines that focus on the failure of Eve
I find it interesting that anyone would focus on Eve's "failure", since Jesus Christ came as the second/last "Adam" (Rom 5:15,18-19; 1Cor 15:47) to fix the failure of Adam (Rom 5:12), not Eve.

Last edited by DaveC519; 09-22-2012 at 07:16 AM.
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  #57  
Old 09-22-2012, 10:51 AM
AreYouReady? AreYouReady? is offline
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Re: Catholicism & Women

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple View Post
All believers should call Mary blessed.
She was blessed and favored by God and every believer should recognize that.

But Mary was just a servant to God like the rest of the believers. My sister believes that she is co-redeemer.
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  #58  
Old 09-22-2012, 11:25 AM
houston houston is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AreYouReady? View Post

She was blessed and favored by God and every believer should recognize that.

But Mary was just a servant to God like the rest of the believers. My sister believes that she is co-redeemer.
Yeah, thank John Paul II for that one.
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  #59  
Old 09-22-2012, 11:38 AM
AreYouReady? AreYouReady? is offline
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Re: Catholicism & Women

Quote:
Originally Posted by houston View Post
Yeah, thank John Paul II for that one.
I guess since they made themselves the *vicar* of Christ, they can teach and add anything to the doctrine they want to. His word is infallible you know.
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