We are officially a family without a church

[Originalist]

Originally Posted by n david

I see I should have asked what people's definition of mentoring is first. I'm especially interested in Originalist's definition, since he was disappointed with the lack of it by his Pastor.

Surely, Originalist doesn't define mentoring as how tv1a has described it; which really is basic discipleship. I have a feeling he meant something more involved than just discipleship.

Maybe so. I see discipleship as where we learn to be a mature follower of Christ, "no more children", as Paul mentioned. I see mentoring as what Christ gave to his inner circle, or what Paul was to Timothy.

Maybe a pastor is not "obligated" to do so. But the lack of it is alrming me. The attitude seems to be , "give me 10% of your money and I'll let you work in my church for free."

[CC1]

Originally Posted by ILG

You were without a pastor for a little while when you left the UPC weren't you?

No. We left the UPC because we moved to another state and started attending a church that had left the UPC about 5 years before.

Besides I have never said someone can't go for a short time without being plugged into a church while they check out the choices available.

What I have said is that if someone just leaves the UPC or any church for that matter and removes themselves from what the bible clearly tells us is there for the development of our christian walk (pastors, teachers, etc as mentioned before) then they are wrong.

My observation is that once people stop going to church if they do it very long they learn to love sleeping in on Sunday's and just making it another day off.

I have also observed that when people try to pastor themselves they tend to lose sight of the fact that they are depriving themselves of the benefits of teaching that challenges your thinking and builds up your walk with God by a person who is invested in their walk with God and cares for them. Again, just read Ephesians.

The other thing I have observed is people who quit going to church because they just can't find one that teaches and preaches everything EXACTLY as they believe so they suddenly become proponents of "home church" and either have church with just family or recruit a few more malcontents or followers so they don't ever have to hear something they don't like or agree with. There may be some rationales for home church (when the church is under persecution and can't meet corporately, etc) but my belief is t hat 90% of the time it is just an excuse for stubborn people who must have everything their way.

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by CC1

No. We left the UPC because we moved to another state and started attending a church that had left the UPC about 5 years before.

Besides I have never said someone can't go for a short time without being plugged into a church while they check out the choices available.

What I have said is that if someone just leaves the UPC or any church for that matter and removes themselves from what the bible clearly tells us is there for the development of our christian walk (pastors, teachers, etc as mentioned before) then they are wrong.

My observation is that once people stop going to church if they do it very long they learn to love sleeping in on Sunday's and just making it another day off.

I have also observed that when people try to pastor themselves they tend to lose sight of the fact that they are depriving themselves of the benefits of teaching that challenges your thinking and builds up your walk with God by a person who is invested in their walk with God and cares for them. Again, just read Ephesians.

The other thing I have observed is people who quit going to church because they just can't find one that teaches and preaches everything EXACTLY as they believe so they suddenly become proponents of "home church" and either have church with just family or recruit a few more malcontents or followers so they don't ever have to hear something they don't like or agree with. There may be some rationales for home church (when the church is under persecution and can't meet corporately, etc) but my belief is t hat 90% of the time it is just an excuse for stubborn people who must have everything their way.

Also fellowshipping with the church body tends to cause us to see our weak areas and tests our Christlikeness. Do we love like Christ loved...even the unlovable? Do we support the weak? Do we exhibit the fruit of the Spirit with those that don't or those who try our patience? Can we forgive...over and over and over again? Those are the things that being with others in Christ tends to work.

But I'm assuming that Originalist has prayed, fasted, and sought the Lord for direction and that he has spoken to the Pastor of the church he is leaving. And that he left without pulling others out with him and is seeking a church body to serve.

[Steve Epley]

Originally Posted by CC1

No. We left the UPC because we moved to another state and started attending a church that had left the UPC about 5 years before.

Besides I have never said someone can't go for a short time without being plugged into a church while they check out the choices available.

What I have said is that if someone just leaves the UPC or any church for that matter and removes themselves from what the bible clearly tells us is there for the development of our christian walk (pastors, teachers, etc as mentioned before) then they are wrong.

My observation is that once people stop going to church if they do it very long they learn to love sleeping in on Sunday's and just making it another day off.

I have also observed that when people try to pastor themselves they tend to lose sight of the fact that they are depriving themselves of the benefits of teaching that challenges your thinking and builds up your walk with God by a person who is invested in their walk with God and cares for them. Again, just read Ephesians.

The other thing I have observed is people who quit going to church because they just can't find one that teaches and preaches everything EXACTLY as they believe so they suddenly become proponents of "home church" and either have church with just family or recruit a few more malcontents or followers so they don't ever have to hear something they don't like or agree with. There may be some rationales for home church (when the church is under persecution and can't meet corporately, etc) but my belief is t hat 90% of the time it is just an excuse for stubborn people who must have everything their way.

Words of wisdom. Hear it.

[Originalist]

Originally Posted by CC1

No. We left the UPC because we moved to another state and started attending a church that had left the UPC about 5 years before.

Besides I have never said someone can't go for a short time without being plugged into a church while they check out the choices available.

What I have said is that if someone just leaves the UPC or any church for that matter and removes themselves from what the bible clearly tells us is there for the development of our christian walk (pastors, teachers, etc as mentioned before) then they are wrong.

My observation is that once people stop going to church if they do it very long they learn to love sleeping in on Sunday's and just making it another day off.

I have also observed that when people try to pastor themselves they tend to lose sight of the fact that they are depriving themselves of the benefits of teaching that challenges your thinking and builds up your walk with God by a person who is invested in their walk with God and cares for them. Again, just read Ephesians.

The other thing I have observed is people who quit going to church because they just can't find one that teaches and preaches everything EXACTLY as they believe so they suddenly become proponents of "home church" and either have church with just family or recruit a few more malcontents or followers so they don't ever have to hear something they don't like or agree with. There may be some rationales for home church (when the church is under persecution and can't meet corporately, etc) but my belief is t hat 90% of the time it is just an excuse for stubborn people who must have everything their way.

This post overflows with ignorance and spiritual pride. This is a clear example of someone who clings to the idolatry of the modern American church system which has done more to harm and hinder evangelism and true discipleship than anything in modern history. Every accusation you make here, like calling people 'malcontents" could have been said about Luther or even our Apostolic fathers of the early 20th century.

[Abiding Now]

Originally Posted by CC1

No. We left the UPC because we moved to another state and started attending a church that had left the UPC about 5 years before.

Besides I have never said someone can't go for a short time without being plugged into a church while they check out the choices available.

What I have said is that if someone just leaves the UPC or any church for that matter and removes themselves from what the bible clearly tells us is there for the development of our christian walk (pastors, teachers, etc as mentioned before) then they are wrong.

My observation is that once people stop going to church if they do it very long they learn to love sleeping in on Sunday's and just making it another day off.

I have also observed that when people try to pastor themselves they tend to lose sight of the fact that they are depriving themselves of the benefits of teaching that challenges your thinking and builds up your walk with God by a person who is invested in their walk with God and cares for them. Again, just read Ephesians.

The other thing I have observed is people who quit going to church because they just can't find one that teaches and preaches everything EXACTLY as they believe so they suddenly become proponents of "home church" and either have church with just family or recruit a few more malcontents or followers so they don't ever have to hear something they don't like or agree with. There may be some rationales for home church (when the church is under persecution and can't meet corporately, etc) but my belief is t hat 90% of the time it is just an excuse for stubborn people who must have everything their way.

WOW!

[RandyWayne]

Originally Posted by CC1

No. We left the UPC because we moved to another state and started attending a church that had left the UPC about 5 years before.

Besides I have never said someone can't go for a short time without being plugged into a church while they check out the choices available.

What I have said is that if someone just leaves the UPC or any church for that matter and removes themselves from what the bible clearly tells us is there for the development of our christian walk (pastors, teachers, etc as mentioned before) then they are wrong.

My observation is that once people stop going to church if they do it very long they learn to love sleeping in on Sunday's and just making it another day off.

I have also observed that when people try to pastor themselves they tend to lose sight of the fact that they are depriving themselves of the benefits of teaching that challenges your thinking and builds up your walk with God by a person who is invested in their walk with God and cares for them. Again, just read Ephesians.

The other thing I have observed is people who quit going to church because they just can't find one that teaches and preaches everything EXACTLY as they believe so they suddenly become proponents of "home church" and either have church with just family or recruit a few more malcontents or followers so they don't ever have to hear something they don't like or agree with. There may be some rationales for home church (when the church is under persecution and can't meet corporately, etc) but my belief is t hat 90% of the time it is just an excuse for stubborn people who must have everything their way.

I agree 100% with everything in the blue.

As for the red, I find having a day of rest to be. . . . . restful!

[Amanah]

Originally Posted by Originalist

But we are still part of THE church.

What now, Lord?

In my opinion, there is nothing that compares to being in the midst of the people of the name, worshipping the one God in spirit and in truth, hearing the preaching and teaching, seeing people being filled with the Holy Ghost and people being baptized in Jesus name. This is when heaven kisses earth.

We are to love the Lord our God with all our heart, and remember that it's our relationship with Him, and the joy of our salvation that is most precious.

But, we have this treasure in earthen vessels. Humans and organizations can be imperfect. We may not agree with everything that is said in done, but we likely can agree with most, or at least the most important aspects.

I think it is important to have good personal boundaries and to keep things in perspective. Sometimes religion can feel restrictive, controlling, legalistic and burdensome. If we try to obey to the letter of the law, trying to meet all expectations, instead of being led by the Spirit and following Christ out of love, we can lose sight of our relationship with Christ and feel drained.

Sometimes it's good to step back and get our perspective back. But it's vital to make sure that we don't lose our way, that we fight the good fight of faith and persevere, stay the course. There is to much to be lost if we falter.

[tv1a]

The Bible doesn't encourage isolation. The worst thing a person can do is to detatch from the body.

Originally Posted by Originalist

This post overflows with ignorance and spiritual pride. This is a clear example of someone who clings to the idolatry of the modern American church system which has done more to harm and hinder evangelism and true discipleship than anything in modern history. Every accusation you make here, like calling people 'malcontents" could have been said about Luther or even our Apostolic fathers of the early 20th century.

[n david]

Originally Posted by CC1

No. We left the UPC because we moved to another state and started attending a church that had left the UPC about 5 years before.

Besides I have never said someone can't go for a short time without being plugged into a church while they check out the choices available.

What I have said is that if someone just leaves the UPC or any church for that matter and removes themselves from what the bible clearly tells us is there for the development of our christian walk (pastors, teachers, etc as mentioned before) then they are wrong.

My observation is that once people stop going to church if they do it very long they learn to love sleeping in on Sunday's and just making it another day off.

I have also observed that when people try to pastor themselves they tend to lose sight of the fact that they are depriving themselves of the benefits of teaching that challenges your thinking and builds up your walk with God by a person who is invested in their walk with God and cares for them. Again, just read Ephesians.

The other thing I have observed is people who quit going to church because they just can't find one that teaches and preaches everything EXACTLY as they believe so they suddenly become proponents of "home church" and either have church with just family or recruit a few more malcontents or followers so they don't ever have to hear something they don't like or agree with. There may be some rationales for home church (when the church is under persecution and can't meet corporately, etc) but my belief is that 90% of the time it is just an excuse for stubborn people who must have everything their way.

Bingo!