Essential Goal of Christianity???

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by phareztamar

Don't see how.

Love is a fruit of the spirit How can those without the Holy Spirit love when love is a fruit of the spirit?

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Esaias

I quoted Jesus speaking to his disciples, he affirmed the truth that if we love Him we will keep his commandments. Is He not God?

The scriptures I posted show HOW to love God. Simply saying 'love God and your neighbor' explains nothing.

That's true. However, listen to what I'm saying. It's nuanced. We are commanded to:

1.) Love God with all our being.
2.) And to demonstrate that love for God by loving our neighbor as ourselves.

We show that we love God, by loving our neighbor. And by loving our neighbor, we show that we love God.

To love our neighbor one does not murder, bear false witness against them, covet their stuff, commit adultery, steal, etc etc. In other words, the commandments of God relating to our interactions with other people define how 'love' works itself out in various situations and under various circumstances. The commandments of God give us the best, most expedient and wisest manner of 'loving God and our neighbor'. Thus, it is written 'love is the fulfilling of the law'.

Oh, I don't discount the Ten Commandments and their value. But they are incomplete and will not produce the level of righteousness we are called to, even if obeyed to the fullest. In fact, let's not put the cart before the horse. God's desire was that we love our neighbor. And so, the Ten Commandments were given as a guideline of the bare minimum we should consider when doing so.

This does not mean we can 'love' and do away with God's commandments. If it did, we could 'love our neighbor' and yet commit adultery. Adultery is a sin because God said it is a sin. Why did He say it is forbidden? Because it is not an act of LOVE, it is an act of selfishness.

How could you love your neighbor (a spouse in this example) and commit adultery? It doesn't work.

Rom 13:9
For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Here Paul expressly declares and teaches what I just said - that the commandments of God are comprehended in the saying 'love they neighbor'. Love is not a replacement for the commandments of God, they are part and parcel of love.

Here, Paul is saying all the commandments are fulfilled in loving one's neighbor.

What is with this bandying of the terms 'legalistic' and 'legalism' whenever the commandments of God are mentioned? Legalism is not even a biblical word.

Legalism means one of two things - either it means attempting to be justified under the terms of the old covenant (which will not happen for anyone), or it is a term used erroneously as an emotive slogan in opposition to any call for actual and/or specific obedience.

When I speak of legalism, I'm speaking of the inordinate focus of obeying laws to produce the righteousness we're called to. For example, one can obey all of the Ten Commandments and not love one's neighbor. Yet, if one loved one's neighbor, they will rise higher than the Ten Commandments.

I also specifically apply the tern "legalism" to the strict adherence to traditions and commandments of mean. For example, facial hair standards.

Is it not commanded that we love our neighbor? Then how is THAT itself not 'legalism', if by legalism is meant a demand for obedience to a command of God?

Again, I don't see the commandments as being legalism in and of themselves.

All the commandments, statutes, judgements, and ordinances of God can be related to the 'Big Ten'. They serve as 'explanatory' dicta on those 'Big Ten'. And the Big Ten teach us how to love God and to love our neighbor.

Really, they are incomplete. They don't mention drunkenness and many other sinful things. In essence, to judge righteousness merely upon the Ten Commandments is to lower the standard of righteousness severely.

God did not leave it to us to just figure out what is expected, otherwise everyone would have occasion to complain against God on the basis of equity at the Judgement. 'You said love your neighbor, the woman was my neighbor, I loved her, we slept together. How can I be guilty of anything?'

You're right. God didn't leave us to figure it out. God admonishes us to be led of the Spirit. If you slept with a woman, you clearly were in lust, not love. If you loved her, you'd honor her. And if it was a moment of lust wherein you failed to love... yet you do indeed love her... you'll marry her.

To which God may justly reply, 'It's spelled out for you, it's called FORNICATION and it is identified in the Word as SIN (aka CRIME).'

Amen.

God will not say 'well, you have this in-built sense of right and wrong, and you should have listened to your inner voice', because the hypothetical fornicator may very well say in reply 'my inner voice said only that she was sweet and beautiful and she wants me and I want her and no harm no foul!!!!!'

The Spirit. We must know the Law. However, we're called higher than the Law.

Man by his wisdom did not know God. Nor does man by his wisdom know what love actually is. Thus the need for Revelation, ie the Word, and the public display of the Word in action in the life of Jesus Christ.

Yes, an unregenerated man without the Holy Ghost doesn't know God. Nor does he know what love actually is. He needs the Spirit of God. The Spirit of God will illuminate the Scriptures as a whole and through that he will know the right way and walk in it.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Dedicated Mind

i don't believe you. anyone who has studied buddhism or hinduism is not going to be so narrow minded about obeying the commandments of God. why don't you express a little of your eastern knowledge. who are some of the main teachers from the east? what is the main insight or essential teaching of hinduism? express a little bit of eastern wisdom. i bet you can't name any insightful teaching from buddhism.

What is this, "My Buddha is bigger than your Buddha"?



You ask me why Bodhidharma has no beard. Perhaps you already know the answer.

Take the red pill.

[Dedicated Mind]

Originally Posted by houston

BAHAHAHA! There are reasons the rest of the translations replace GHOST with SPIRIT.

Don't attack and run junior. esplain yoself. maybe i'm wrong. why does the bible use ghost? even if there is a reason, it is clear that the holy ghost is the presence of the human christ and that there are only two distinctions of spirit in the bible, soul and spirit. so if father is spirit and holy ghost is spirit and they are distinct, it is logical that one of them is soul or else we would have a completely unique being in holy ghost.

[Dedicated Mind]

Originally Posted by Esaias

What is this, "My Buddha is bigger than your Buddha"?



You ask me why Bodhidharma has no beard. Perhaps you already know the answer.

Take the red pill.

so you can quote a zen koan and you have watched the matrix, just like i thought, a complete charlatan. i am no specialist, but i know more than that.

[Antipas]

The essential goal of Christianity was to express God and to define God as indwelling man.

It's been over 2,000 years since the original followers of the Christ illuminated the world. Today, Christianity has become just another religion. Why aren't we asking about how God is revealing Himself today?

There is obviously one God. And God is a God of love and compassion. But those who profess to know God best are rarely loving or compassionate.

[Dedicated Mind]

Originally Posted by Antipas

The essential goal of Christianity was to express God and to define God as indwelling man.

It's been over 2,000 years since the original followers of the Christ illuminated the world. Today, Christianity has become just another religion. Why aren't we asking about how God is revealing Himself today?

There is obviously one God. And God is a God of love and compassion. But those who profess to know God best are rarely loving or compassionate.

while i do think there are elements of truth in all religious traditions and that studying other traditions can enhance christian faith, i think that christianity is the most complete system and the tradition that expresses the most truth. there really is no need to venture out of the tradition unless it is to enhance faith, expand awareness or build bridges to other traditions. the evolution of human consciousness and interspirituality is what is happening now, but i don't necessarily see it as god's doing, but the evolution of human society apart from god. how is unitarianism and human spiritual evolution necessarily god's doing?

[Antipas]

Originally Posted by Dedicated Mind

while i do think there are elements of truth in all religious traditions and that studying other traditions can enhance christian faith, i think that christianity is the most complete system and the tradition that expresses the most truth. there really is no need to venture out of the tradition unless it is to enhance faith, expand awareness or build bridges to other traditions. the evolution of human consciousness and interspirituality is what is happening now, but i don't necessarily see it as god's doing, but the evolution of human society apart from god. how is unitarianism and human spiritual evolution necessarily god's doing?

The Unitarian Universalist faith is one wherein each seeker is encouraged to seek out spiritual truths within themselves. Some follow more closely to Christianity. Others follow more closely to other religions. And some are self declared atheists or agnostics. For the most part, I believe that every religion is essentially a man made "mythology" about God. No religion adequately defines God. No religion holds all truth. In fact, as time goes by each religion drifts further and further from the original light it bore. Christianity only seems more complete to the Western mind, because we relate to it better. Yet someone from the Middle East or the Far East might find Christianity rather incomplete or inconsistent. We've taken the divine truths of God and enshrouded them in idolatrous mythologies that divide and engender hatred and strife. I believe that this troubles God more than what most might define as "sin". I also believe that what most religions define as "the devil" is God's own angel, sent to test and reveal hearts and intentions. Lastly, I believe that "hell" is more of a state of mind. It is transitioning from this world to the next, having unfulfilled one's true potential. Having failed to find one's own identity. Entering eternity as someone other than yourself. Realizing that you wasted your time on earth and took on the forms and fashions of religion and society, failing to be who and what God made you to be. Such a state is absolute misery of soul. Anguish and sadness. Some are tasting of this state of existence right now. It's a spiritual state of depression wherein one's greatest fears and failures come to life to haunt and torment. In the end the soul "in hell" must drop their self-defeating mythology, guilt, shame, and disappointment... and surrender to the unconditional love of God. The God that transcends all religion. The God of Spirit. Heaven is a place of spiritual bliss wherein the soul is reunited with God and partakes in God's own essence. It's the rain drop returning to the sea.

[Antipas]

As for God... God is the one that was all there ever was from eternity past. Yet how could God know Himself and reveal Himself from within Himself? God would be God in comparison to what? Having no point of reference God was the unrevealed and unexpressed reality. And so, to reveal and even to experience His own self, His own being, from God came all that is. Having come from God, all that we know is a part of God. Now, God is revealed and known in relation to His creation, of which man is a part.

[Antipas]

So, the question asked in this thread is not exactly correct. The truth is that the essential goal of Christianity is varied. One will find as many essential goals for Christianity as there are Christians. For one Christian, Christianity is a way to be free of drugs. To another guilt and shame. To another a way to live. To another unity with God. To another power. To another prestige. To another community. To another a sense of identity.

Instead of asking as to what the essential goal of Christianity is (as though there is only one essential goal)... we should ask; what is the essential goal of Christianity to each of us? Because what it is to one will not fit into the life of another. And what it is to that other will not always fit into the life of the one. We have to accept that each has a personal relationship with God. For most religious faith is deeply personal and serves personal needs. We should be sensitive to that reality.