Holinisness is not....

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by endtimer

Could not agree more... Wow, the stories I could share about the types who depend on habit, traditions and church culture to give them a sense of "spiritual" security. They are as beautifully painted graves, full of dead men's bones. I find a better law though. The law of the Spirit. A law that leads to life, revelation, sometimes confronts my own traditions and perceptions but ultimately grants me freedom from sin.

It also saddens me because I've seen those who believed that perfection was possible lower the standards of holiness to fit their sinful and carnal nature. For example, I knew a preacher who was cut off in traffic and called the other driver a name "f**k*r". lol Later on we were talking about it and he kept saying, "Well, it's not a sin. Jesus called men 'foxes' and 'vipers'..." He lowered the bar to keep his perceived "perfection". I've also discovered that the bar is lowered in other areas that are more personal when I worked on computers and fixed a couple for several elders of the church.

Why not just be honest? There is no good thing in the flesh. It's not regenerated. It has a fallen and carnal nature that we must overcome. And we depend on both God's grace and walking in the Spirit to overcome these infirmities of our flesh.

None of the people who I know that preach perfectionism have adequately demonstrated it. None of them. If you don't believe me... ask their wives about how "perfect" their husbands are. lol

Most of their wives roll their eyes at the perfectionist chest beating because they know how carnal their husbands can be on bad days... when their smiling in all their perfection in front of the church... yet behaving like snarling angry bears at home. Women are often more honest and willing to recognize and accept imperfection in themselves and others. Their tender hearts can be of great benefit. Many even pull the pastor (or qualified elders) aside to ask for prayer regarding their husband's "imperfections" at home. Again, I've been there, done that one too. It's really disheartening when you're praying for the imperfections in a man who touts his alleged perfection. There is a word for folks like that. And Jesus didn't like that spirit either.

[Luke]

Originally Posted by Aquila

I didn't say that you totally embraced pelagianism. I said,

I do fear that you've fallen for a number of the errors taught by the Pelagianist heresy.

For the most part we agree on this. However, I see the overcoming as progressive as one learns to walk in the Spirit and comes to a deeper understanding of Christ's righteousness, the process ending in eternal glorification at the return of Christ.

Where we disagree is... what we overcome in order to attain Christian perfection. You believe that we only overcome the outside influences of Satan and that we are entirely free of the sinful and carnal nature. I believe that while yes, we must overcome outside influences of Satan, we also must overcome the inherent sinful/carnal nature of our un-regenerated flesh and mind.



It's my opinion that you contradict yourself here. If the entire sinful/carnal nature has been destroyed... nothing the enemy could throw at us would appeal. Clearly there is yet an un-regenerated part of us that can be enticed or tempted to sin. I see this as being in the flesh and our carnal mind. We must overcome the fallen flesh and the carnal mind (which is death) through renewing the mind and mortifying the sinful desires and impulses of the flesh. I also include our entire biology (hormones, genetics, etc.) in the term "the flesh".

I apologize i guess i did read into your pelagian statement and mistook it.

The place where i see disagreement is not so much what must be overcome but the how and when. I hold to the position that in an instant we put faith in God and God through the blood of Jesus removes our sinful nature. I would agree that we still retain all of our natural appetites that are God given there is nothing wrong with these. If by carnal nature you mean the desire to eat and drink procreate and live life then yes i agree we retain this but there is nothing wrong with this. All of these things were given to us by God when He created us and called us good. These were present before the fall and do make us fallen. The sinful nature wich is removed at the point of sanctification is that which is a direct result of the fall and that which pulls us to sin thus giving us a natural bend or inclination to sin. This does not force us to sin but does pull us to sin and makes it easier to sin than to do right though we must still choose to sin. In the same way when the sinful nature is remvoed and we are made partakers of the divine nature we have a bend or inclination to do right this does not mean that we are forced to do right rather it is easier to do right but we must still choose to do right.

[Luke]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Yes, Jesus did have a "normal" human nature. Carnal, prone to temptation, yet without sin (as did Adam). Jesus simply overcame the flesh (as we're called to do) through the Spirit (as we're called to do). I don't believe in divine flesh doctrine.

Carnal can be defined as follows:

Definition of carnal (adj)

Bing Dictionary
car·nal
[ káarn'l ]
1.relating to physical needs: relating to somebody's physical needs or appetites, especially as contrasted with spiritual or intellectual qualities
2.sensual: sensual or sexual
3.relating to body: relating to or consisting of the body

Jesus had normal human appetites and desires in every category. However, He didn't surrender to those that were sinful or not conducive to His redemptive mission. Not everything that is "carnal" equals "sin". However, all sin is carnal.

I have never heard of divine flesh doctrine i will have to look into it before i comment on it.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Luke

I apologize i guess i did read into your pelagian statement and mistook it.

The place where i see disagreement is not so much what must be overcome but the how and when. I hold to the position that in an instant we put faith in God and God through the blood of Jesus removes our sinful nature. I would agree that we still retain all of our natural appetites that are God given there is nothing wrong with these. If by carnal nature you mean the desire to eat and drink procreate and live life then yes i agree we retain this but there is nothing wrong with this. All of these things were given to us by God when He created us and called us good. These were present before the fall and do make us fallen. The sinful nature wich is removed at the point of sanctification is that which is a direct result of the fall and that which pulls us to sin thus giving us a natural bend or inclination to sin. This does not force us to sin but does pull us to sin and makes it easier to sin than to do right though we must still choose to sin. In the same way when the sinful nature is remvoed and we are made partakers of the divine nature we have a bend or inclination to do right this does not mean that we are forced to do right rather it is easier to do right but we must still choose to do right.

If the sinful nature is eradicated... then you'd agree that there is no pull or tug towards any form of sin. I disagree. I can still feel something in my flesh that wants various things that are sinful.

[endtimer]

Originally Posted by Aquila

It also saddens me because I've seen those who believed that perfection was possible lower the standards of holiness to fit their sinful and carnal nature. For example, I knew a preacher who was cut off in traffic and called the other driver a name "f**k*r". lol Later on we were talking about it and he kept saying, "Well, it's not a sin. Jesus called men 'foxes' and 'vipers'..." He lowered the bar to keep his perceived "perfection". I've also discovered that the bar is lowered in other areas that are more personal when I worked on computers and fixed a couple for several elders of the church. Why not just be honest? There is no good thing in the flesh. It's not regenerated. It has a fallen and carnal nature that we must overcome. And we depend on both God's grace and walking in the Spirit to overcome these infirmities of our flesh. None of the people who I know that preach perfectionism have adequately demonstrated it. None of them. If you don't believe me... ask their wives about how "perfect" their husbands are. lol Most of their wives roll their eyes at the perfectionist chest beating because they know how carnal their husbands can be on bad days... when their smiling in all their perfection in front of the church... yet behaving like snarling angry bears at home. Women are often more honest and willing to recognize and accept imperfection in themselves and others. Their tender hearts can be of great benefit. Many even pull the pastor (or qualified elders) aside to ask for prayer regarding their husband's "imperfections" at home. Again, I've been there, done that one too. It's really disheartening when you're praying for the imperfections in a man who touts his alleged perfection. There is a word for folks like that. And Jesus didn't like that spirit either.

As always, good stuff. I chuckled a bit at the guy who got cut off, but found myself serious again when you mentioned he tried to defend his actions. Sad, why not just be real. You point out two major problems that show up when we depend on our own sense of righteousness, the need to hide our humanity and the need to prove our spirituality. I doubt there is any greater advantage we can give the devil than to hide something or prove something.

[Luke]

Originally Posted by Aquila

If the sinful nature is eradicated... then you'd agree that there is no pull or tug towards any form of sin. I disagree. I can still feel something in my flesh that wants various things that are sinful.

When one is entirerly sanctified sin is repulsive instead of appealing.

[Luke]

Aquila even though we disagree on this topic it is always nice that we can civily discuss and disagree.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by endtimer

As always, good stuff. I chuckled a bit at the guy who got cut off, but found myself serious again when you mentioned he tried to defend his actions. Sad, why not just be real. You point out two major problems that show up when we depend on our own sense of righteousness, the need to hide our humanity and the need to prove our spirituality. I doubt there is any greater advantage we can give the devil than to hide something or prove something.

That's the beauty of grace. Under the doctrine of grace, we can "get real" to "get healed".

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Luke

When one is entirerly sanctified sin is repulsive instead of appealing.

And that's my point. They are then beyond temptation to sin. Again, if one experiences any temptation or inclination to sin, that is evidence of the sinful carnal nature of the flesh. Therefore, if you ever feel tempted Luke... you've yet to be entirely sanctified, and therefore, by your own definition, you aren't saved until you get to that point.

Good luck!

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Luke

Aquila even though we disagree on this topic it is always nice that we can civily discuss and disagree.

Amen. I've realized that if you get three elders (or rabbis) in a room, you'll most likely hear 5 opinions. lol