Circumcision of the heart

[obriencp]

maybe true repentance is the point of burrial and regeneration, while water baptism serves as an external action to display our faith and be a witness of our commitment to the Lord Jesus before peers and the church body?

[obriencp]

I believe true repentance should be coupled with water baptism, but I don't believe water baptism saves.

[phareztamar]

Originally Posted by mfblume

I don't think so. You may be right, though. What passage would you be referring to?

We are BORN AGAIN by water and Spirit, if that's what you mean.

I do know that Romans 6 is about water baptism, and says after baptism we're to present ourselves to God as those alive from the dead. He did not mention Spirit baptism in there anywhere. Your thoughts?

Careful my brother. As a champion of only using biblical terms, I would think you knew that scripture never says we are born again by water.

[Luke]

Can a person be born again and still have a be carnal and fleshly? If so then how does heart circumcision take place at conversion?

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by obriencp

I believe true repentance should be coupled with water baptism, but I don't believe water baptism saves.

Peter said it did in 1 Peter 3:21.

1Pe 3:21 KJV The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by obriencp

I see what you mean about it almost being "automatic" which leads me to a point that will NOT be well recieved. While i believe there is a link between water baptism and repentance, I don't believe water baptism has to do with "salvation."

Peter said it did.

1Pe 3:21 KJV The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Hear me out, if true repentance and faith are present and that person has the Holy Spirit in them, then the spirit is already working in them when they go through the conversion process participating in water baptism. The power we have to live a life from sin comes only from the power of the Holy Ghost working in us. If we don't automatically recieve the spirit during water baptism, then is it possible the new convert already received His Spirit prior to water baptism? These verses tend to make more sense if the Spirit is already present and working in those being buried in water baptism.

I disagree. Spirit baptism definitely happens both before or after water baptism. See Acts 8 for after baptism, and Acts 10 for before.

[obriencp]

Originally Posted by phareztamar

Careful my brother. As a champion of only using biblical terms, I would think you knew that scripture never says we are born again by water.

so many times that is misquoted.

[obriencp]

Originally Posted by Luke

Can a person be born again and still have a be carnal and fleshly? If so then how does heart circumcision take place at conversion?

Yes. Just because one is born again doesn't mean they're exempt from temptation. Besides, until we're changed at the last trump, we are still in these fleshly bodies with all of it's weaknesses. But, we are not to use that as an excuse to sin... you can still remove yourself from the covenant relationship by not walking holy and upright.

In all honesty, aren't we talking about a metaphor Paul (and Luke in Acts?) used this as an example to show the Jews that the outward circumcision they were so hung up on didn't matter because of the new covenant/testament. The importance needs to be placed on the inward man and His Spirit working on our spirits. They may have used the term "heart circumcision" to emphasize a changing of our spirit, or a cutting off of the old man's tendancies. This was to show that a ceremonial cutting of the physical flesh doesn't make ones heart/spirit right. But, if God's holy Spirit changes us from the inside out, that's a real change.

[Luke]

Originally Posted by obriencp

Yes. Just because one is born again doesn't mean they're exempt from temptation. Besides, until we're changed at the last trump, we are still in these fleshly bodies with all of it's weaknesses. But, we are not to use that as an excuse to sin... you can still remove yourself from the covenant relationship by not walking holy and upright.

In all honesty, aren't we talking about a metaphor Paul (and Luke in Acts?) used this as an example to show the Jews that the outward circumcision they were so hung up on didn't matter because of the new covenant/testament. The importance needs to be placed on the inward man and His Spirit working on our spirits. They may have used the term "heart circumcision" to emphasize a changing of our spirit, or a cutting off of the old man's tendancies. This was to show that a ceremonial cutting of the physical flesh doesn't make ones heart/spirit right. But, if God's holy Spirit changes us from the inside out, that's a real change.

I agree that we are always (while on this earth) subject to being tempted but this has nothing to do with our body of meat, bones, blood, muscles, and tissue. What I was referring to was our fallen nature what Paul calls the old man or the law of sin in our members or the body of sin or body of death. That thing that we received from Adam which draws us to sin. This has nothing to do with our physical body. If by our having a physical body we must also have a fallen nature then did Jesus have a fallen nature since He had a physical body?

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by phareztamar

Careful my brother. As a champion of only using biblical terms, I would think you knew that scripture never says we are born again by water.

Technically it says born of water, but the issue is new birth. I disagree water here indicates natural birth from the womb. So it can only mean new birth of water. Jesus did use the term "born again."