Reason for Church Services

[n david]

Originally Posted by J.A. Perez

Sir,

I didnt say much, I just said your close.

It was just scriptire I didnt even highlight anything?

HAHA! but thats just like u.

"That's just like u?" Please, tell me more about me, since you claim to know so much about me.

Originally Posted by J.A. Perez

Go ahead and argue with the word all you want, I never said to treat a man like a priest? The word teaches the principle to follow the elder/pastor/shephard like they follow Christ. People dont even do that, many pastors hold a very modest stand in life in general, but people in the congregation see it, but think they can get by with much less. Then the Pastor gets up to help and address certain dangers and people call him a legalist.

You are awesome,

I am awesome, thank you. No need to argue with the word, it says what it says. The head of every man is Christ. The reason Paul said to follow him as he follows Christ is because the church in Corinth argued over who to follow. "I follow Apollos." "I follow Paul." Thus Paul said, not as a way of claiming some kind of authority over them, but to clear up the matter, Paul said follow me as I follow Christ. Then he further clarified that the head of every man was Christ.

The reason I mentioned what I did about people treating Pastors as Catholic Priests is because of posts you and other cons post stating people must have a Pastor, and other posts which imply that the Pastor has more spiritual knowledge than any ordinary saint can have, and by claiming the Pastor has spiritual authority over people. You may not like the analogy, but it's the truth. Perhaps not you, though by your post it appears so, but many cons have made the Pastor into a Catholic Priest.

[n david]

Originally Posted by thephnxman

Christ is the head of EVERY (plural) man; the man (singular) is the head of the woman (singular).

The only person over whom a man has authority is his own wife...this includes the Ministry. The only man to whom the woman needs to submit, is to her own husband. If she submits to another, she is playing the role of a harlot; and if a man would exercise authority over a woman or another man's wife, he is committing adultery.

We have not touched upon the authority of the scriptures.

Originally Posted by J.A. Perez

Well, as long as the man is in right standing with God and His Word then he is to follow the minisrty as they follow Christ. Do they Not?

If you say no then is Paul in violation of the Word by saying “follow me as I follow Christ”?

Again, there was a reason Paul said "follow me as I follow Christ." He wasn't claiming authority over them, he was trying to settle a dispute in the church in Corinth by people split between following Apollos and Paul.

[n david]

Originally Posted by J.A. Perez

If this reasoning is correct then if a man takes authority over another man does that make him guilty of homo sexuality?

Originally Posted by J.A. Perez

Is there no authority given to a spiritual father over those that he has begotten through the gospel through Christ Jesus?

1Corinthians 4;15
For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.

Paul preached the Gospel and people were saved, thus "I have begotten you." That's it. Have you witnessed to anyone who then repented, was baptized and received the Holy Ghost? And if so, does that give you some kind of authority over them?



There have been people I have ministered to who have been filled with the Holy Ghost, ie I begat them through the Gospel, but I have (nor would I dare claim) authority over them.

[J.A. Perez]

Originally Posted by n david

Paul preached the Gospel and people were saved, thus "I have begotten you." That's it. Have you witnessed to anyone who then repented, was baptized and received the Holy Ghost? And if so, does that give you some kind of authority over them?

There have been people I have ministered to who have been filled with the Holy Ghost, ie I begat them through the Gospel, but I have (nor would I dare claim) authority over them.

I don’t have time to fully respond, but I will say natural or Godly authority is developed not in a priestly way, but due to the consecration of a man or woman. Not that God could not speak through a donkey, but maturity, experience and devotion to God will supersede the authority of a newly born saint. Not to mention the Anointing that God places on men to minister the word. Therefore when a man of God, annointed by God, preaches the word of God, or speaks thus sayeth the Lord; submission is demanded because authority speaks. Call it how you want but this is the need of a pastor and pastor is synonymous with Elder and shepherd.

Berl Stevenson" I don’t have time to qualify everything, you qualify it."

Lol,
J.A. Perez

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Esaias

If I invite the neighbors over for dinner does that mean family dinners are not just for family?

If you do it regularly YES that is what it means. It means that somewhere along the way you decided Dinner time should be a time to include others besides your family

And if not regularly it means It means that somewhere along the way you decided Dinner time COULD be a time to include others besides your family

In fact consider that some gifts during a church service are designed in part to affect unbelievers

[KeptByTheWord]

Originally Posted by J.A. Perez

Ma'am,
Just like in every company there is a chain of command. The church of God is no different.

My children do not have the wisdom or the experience to make good life choices even though my teenagers will tell you different. So it is in the church there are different levels of wisdom and experience. I can only suppose that there are no rules in your house in regard to your children and no limits?

I believe that there are micro managers in the churches of God and I am not advocating that. But I also believe that Good sincere men are capable of making mistakes and maybe even bad judgment. That does not excuse the fact that they are just trying to convey a safety attitude and culture that most people don't naturally have, especially when it comes to a group of any size. We all come from varied cultures and ethnicities.

I’m sure that even the house churches have rules for things they won’t accept, Depending on their level of tolerance. If a guy came in with mud on his boots, who wouldn’t say something at the door?

Micro managing is not ever right, but your definition could be skewed because you are a woman. And women naturally are the weaker vessel and have had problems with authority since the garden. Try to compose yourself when typing it can be misunderstood.


Sincerely,
J.A. Perez

Your sarcasm is not necessary in this discussion. Dismissing me because I am a woman? This shows right there what kind of heart you have that we are dealing with here.

But to address what you said - the headship as taught by Paul is God-Christ-man-woman. It is written nowhere that a woman is to be subject to anyone other than her husband, and Christ. Prove it with scripture if you think otherwise!

So, the way it is clearly understood by Paul's teaching is that if anyone in the 5-fold ministry or leadership of the church had an issue with a woman or child of another man's family, he would take that issue to the man, the head of the home, and allow the man to deal with it in the way he saw best fit. It is not his place to rule over another man's wife or hold authority over her in any way.

There is no need to micromanage the kingdom of the Lord. The ministry and leadership are meant to encourage, strengthen and lead the body of Christ, not rule over them.

[J.A. Perez]

Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord

Your sarcasm is not necessary in this discussion. Dismissing me because I am a woman? This shows right there what kind of heart you have that we are dealing with here.

But to address what you said - the headship as taught by Paul is God-Christ-man-woman. It is written nowhere that a woman is to be subject to anyone other than her husband, and Christ. Prove it with scripture if you think otherwise!

So, the way it is clearly understood by Paul's teaching is that if anyone in the 5-fold ministry or leadership of the church had an issue with a woman or child of another man's family, he would take that issue to the man, the head of the home, and allow the man to deal with it in the way he saw best fit. It is not his place to rule over another man's wife or hold authority over her in any way.

There is no need to micromanage the kingdom of the Lord. The ministry and leadership are meant to encourage, strengthen and lead the body of Christ, not rule over them. (I agree)

Below is a perfect example of what I have been trying to say.

Acts 5:1-11 (KJV)

1 But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession,

2 And kept back part of the price, his wife also being privy to it, and brought a certain part, and laid it at the apostles' feet. (notice he brought this money to Peter not God) But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?

4 Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.
5 And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things.

6 And the young men arose, wound him up, and carried him out, and buried him.

7 And it was about the space of three hours after, when his wife, not knowing what was done, came in.

8 And Peter answered unto her, Tell me whether ye sold the land for so much? And she said, Yea, for so much. (notice she spoke to Peter not to the Holy Ghost.)9 Then Peter said unto her, How is it that ye have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord? behold, the feet of them which have buried thy husband are at the door, and shall carry thee out.

10 Then fell she down straightway at his feet, and yielded up the ghost: and the young men came in, and found her dead, and, carrying her forth, buried her by her husband.

11 And great fear came upon all the church, and upon as many as heard these things.

It is very clear, the God anointed man of God has authority when he speaks for God, whether speaking to a married Man or Woman. A priest never had this authority but a prophet did or in this case the Apostle Peter. Clearly a perfect example of the authority of the 5- fold ministry in the church or out. Notice it was not, and is not, a biblical command for us to sell all we have and give it to the ministry, but the standard had been set and God Backed his man.

No disrespect intended,
J.A. Perez

[shag]

Nothin like being killed by your pastor...

[J.A. Perez]

These are the verses leading up to the story of Ananias and Sapphira which set the standard.

Acts 4:32-37 (KJV)

32 And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul: neither said any of them that ought of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common.

33 And with great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great grace was upon them all.

34 Neither was there any among them that lacked: for as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the things that were sold,

35 And laid them down at the apostles' feet: and distribution was made unto every man according as he had need.

36 And Joses, who by the apostles was surnamed Barnabas, (which is, being interpreted, The son of consolation,) a Levite, and of the country of Cyprus,

37 Having land, sold it, and brought the money, and laid it at the apostles' feet.

[shag]

What's your point?
Is it the great power the apostles had in verse 33, that the pastors nowadays possess as well to kill disobedient saints?
Was it the fact that likely there are zero pastors nowadays that distribute everything BACK amongst the saints, but many instead build a fancier temple, I mean house of God, I mean just a building made with hands?