UPC, ALJC, PAW, etc.

[Bro Flame]

I know of a few congregations where the pastors and their families uphold higher standards than the rest of the church.

However, this could be to a variety of factors.
* The church could be full of newcomers who haven't grown in holiness, separation, or obedience to the pastor.
* The pastor sees a lot of what he preaches as his personal conviction or pulpit standards, and therefore doesn't stress much emphasis on said matters to those in the pews.
* The congregation just might be in rebellion, and won't commit to such standards and expectations.
* The congregation itself may be "backing up" on such holiness standards and traditions, and has strained the church.

The pastor has a role in all of this, more or less, but to blame he or she entirely quite simply isn't fair or completely accurate. As aforementioned, pastors may not expect the same standards to be upheld by those in the pews unless such individuals hold positions in the pulpit or elsewhere in the church. A spirit of rebellion might have quite easily taken over certain individuals who have always, for the lack of better terms, "pushed the envelope" of standards.

[Antipas]

Originally Posted by Holy Roller

I know of a few congregations where the pastors and their families uphold higher standards than the rest of the church.

However, this could be to a variety of factors.
* The church could be full of newcomers who haven't grown in holiness, separation, or obedience to the pastor.
* The pastor sees a lot of what he preaches as his personal conviction or pulpit standards, and therefore doesn't stress much emphasis on said matters to those in the pews.
* The congregation just might be in rebellion, and won't commit to such standards and expectations.
* The congregation itself may be "backing up" on such holiness standards and traditions, and has strained the church.

The pastor has a role in all of this, more or less, but to blame he or she entirely quite simply isn't fair or completely accurate. As aforementioned, pastors may not expect the same standards to be upheld by those in the pews unless such individuals hold positions in the pulpit or elsewhere in the church. A spirit of rebellion might have quite easily taken over certain individuals who have always, for the lack of better terms, "pushed the envelope" of standards.

Amen.

[Apostolic1ness]

The reason sin runs rampant in some churches and not others could primarily be because the Pastor is afraid to stand up against it. Nothing will clean up the church like preaching the word and drawing lines.
Psalms119:9 Wherewithal shall a young man cleanse his ways? by taking heed thereto according to thy word.
2Timothy 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.

[derAlte]

Originally Posted by Apostolic1ness

The reason sin runs rampant in some churches and not others could primarily be because the Pastor is afraid to stand up against it. Nothing will clean up the church like preaching the word and drawing lines.
Psalms119:9 Wherewithal shall a young man cleanse his ways? by taking heed thereto according to thy word.
2Timothy 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.

I have no doubt that this happens. Sin must be dealt with. But to simplistically assume that because a church hasn't achieved a state of absolute perfection doesn't mean the pastor isn't doing his job. It's a question of timing. Genuine God-called pastors actually love their people (what a concept!) and sincerely want them to be saved. They await the unction of the Holy Ghost as to the timing for dealing with things. They know that it is not God's will that any perish. Any uninformed, opinionated knot-head can get in a pulpit and destroy what it may have taken years for a pastor to build up. Jesus dealt with the sin of the woman at the well with gentleness and compassion at the perfect time. Jesus told of a tree that didn't bear fruit. Like many of us, it was urged to just cut the silly thing down. But the heart of Jesus was expressed when he told of the husbandman who wanted more time to fertilize it. We need to allow pastors to follow the example of the Lord Jesus Christ and give them the space to deal with folks so they can be saved.

[Ehud]

Originally Posted by derAlte

I have no doubt that this happens. Sin must be dealt with. But to simplistically assume that because a church hasn't achieved a state of absolute perfection doesn't mean the pastor isn't doing his job. It's a question of timing. Genuine God-called pastors actually love their people (what a concept!) and sincerely want them to be saved. They await the unction of the Holy Ghost as to the timing for dealing with things. They know that it is not God's will that any perish. Any uninformed, opinionated knot-head can get in a pulpit and destroy what it may have taken years for a pastor to build up. Jesus dealt with the sin of the woman at the well with gentleness and compassion at the perfect time. Jesus told of a tree that didn't bear fruit. Like many of us, it was urged to just cut the silly thing down. But the heart of Jesus was expressed when he told of the husbandman who wanted more time to fertilize it. We need to allow pastors to follow the example of the Lord Jesus Christ and give them the space to deal with folks so they can be saved.

[Apostolic1ness]

Originally Posted by derAlte

I have no doubt that this happens. Sin must be dealt with. But to simplistically assume that because a church hasn't achieved a state of absolute perfection doesn't mean the pastor isn't doing his job. It's a question of timing. Genuine God-called pastors actually love their people (what a concept!) and sincerely want them to be saved. They await the unction of the Holy Ghost as to the timing for dealing with things. They know that it is not God's will that any perish. Any uninformed, opinionated knot-head can get in a pulpit and destroy what it may have taken years for a pastor to build up. Jesus dealt with the sin of the woman at the well with gentleness and compassion at the perfect time. Jesus told of a tree that didn't bear fruit. Like many of us, it was urged to just cut the silly thing down. But the heart of Jesus was expressed when he told of the husbandman who wanted more time to fertilize it. We need to allow pastors to follow the example of the Lord Jesus Christ and give them the space to deal with folks so they can be saved.

I agree...

[hometown guy]

Originally Posted by derAlte

I have no doubt that this happens. Sin must be dealt with. But to simplistically assume that because a church hasn't achieved a state of absolute perfection doesn't mean the pastor isn't doing his job. It's a question of timing. Genuine God-called pastors actually love their people (what a concept!) and sincerely want them to be saved. They await the unction of the Holy Ghost as to the timing for dealing with things. They know that it is not God's will that any perish. Any uninformed, opinionated knot-head can get in a pulpit and destroy what it may have taken years for a pastor to build up. Jesus dealt with the sin of the woman at the well with gentleness and compassion at the perfect time. Jesus told of a tree that didn't bear fruit. Like many of us, it was urged to just cut the silly thing down. But the heart of Jesus was expressed when he told of the husbandman who wanted more time to fertilize it. We need to allow pastors to follow the example of the Lord Jesus Christ and give them the space to deal with folks so they can be saved.

I agree but the problem is there are too many pastors out there that are not sensitive to the spirit and miss the timing of God and get so far out that they can’t ( won’t even try ) turn the ship around.

[Ehud]

Originally Posted by hometown guy

I agree but the problem is there are too many pastors out there that are not sensitive to the spirit and miss the timing of God and get so far out that they can’t ( won’t even try ) turn the ship around.

I ask in sincerity, is this a common problem? I have had only two pastors in my life, and I have never thought this of either of them with regards to a stand against sin.

[hometown guy]

Originally Posted by Ehud

I ask in sincerity, is this a common problem? I have had only two pastors in my life, and I have never thought this of either of them with regards to a stand against sin.

Yes it is. They will preach against ungodliness in generic terms without naming sin so a lot of times saints think they preach hard against sin but in reality it’s not named. I know you can’t name everything but the best way to let a spirit get into the church is just simply stop preaching against it when it shows it’s ugly head. The problem with doing it privately is there is a good chance others are also struggling with it and it never gets dealt with since they never got “ caught “ in sin. Preaching is what will expose it and repentance is what will fix it. Yes God can convict them without it being preached but that’s the method God chose to save them that believe ( talking about saints not sinners).

[Ehud]

Originally Posted by Apostolic1ness

The reason sin runs rampant in some churches and not others could primarily be because the Pastor is afraid to stand up against it. Nothing will clean up the church like preaching the word and drawing lines.
Psalms119:9 Wherewithal shall a young man cleanse his ways? by taking heed thereto according to thy word.
2Timothy 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.

Yes, if a pastor simply refuses to take a stand against sin in any shape, form, or fashion, then he is in the wrong. I doubt anyone is going to argue against that. But another reason "sin runs rampant" in some churches is because they open their doors to anyone and everyone. Instead of sounding the alarm "to take a stand," scaring off every visitor, and preaching to the same 20 saints for 35 years, the pastor just might know what he is doing by caring for a community and allowing God to do His job. Preaching Jesus from the pulpit and handling problems/sin in private is not the same as being too cowardly to take a stand against sin. That's the "longsuffering" part of your scripture reference. That pastor must have the patience of Job when dealing with such issues on a routine basis. I see no reason why teaching in private doesn't qualify as reproving, rebuking, and exhorting.

Perhaps you think killing a fly with a Howitzer is the way to go, but blowing up new converts doesn't sound very efficient. You said preachers don't preach for sport but are to be led of God. Why is it that only allows for your straight-forward approach, but not the pragmatic approach I'm defending? I'm certainly not saying there is never a time to sound the alarm, but you definitely seem to be implying if the congregation doesn't line up with the pastor, it's likely due to him being a coward.