Why are UPC church's so sectarian?

Originally Posted by Book 'em Dano

This is not just the UPC. This is symptomatic of our world today. It was never this bad before. Our society is divided. Our politics are divided. Other churches are wrestling with their own forms of liberalism vs conservativism via the gay issue.

What does this mean? "via the gay issue?" I though the church was supposed to be different than the world. The Holy Spirit does not divide and does not bring confusion. The body of Christ should be united. So why are we emulating the world spirit, when we should be of a different spirit. The spirit of Christ...

[Sam]

be careful how you "separate" yourself from brothers or sisters.

I pray
"God,
Please help me not to exclude anyone that You have included
and
help me not to reject anyone that You have accepted."

Jesus said,
"A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; as I have loved you, that you also love one another. By this all will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another" (John 13:34-35)

We are identified as belonging to Jesus by our love,
not by our badge that looks like this:
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e1...ger/Holier.jpg

[chosenbyone]

Originally Posted by Sam

The comparison is not so far fetched in some cases. There are controlling pastors that consider the members in their churches to be their private property and expect them to be completely submissive to the pastor's every whim. How often do you hear folks classified as "Bro. So-and-so's saints" or "Bro. Whatzisname's saints"?

It has been my experience that there are so many types of UPC churches and it wouldn't be fair to broad-brush ones opinion on the whole. I too was very conservative and while living in California went to the most conservative church I had ever been to. That pastor ruled everything in each congregants life. Nothing was dared done without his permission. In my opinion, it created an atmosphere where little grace and love could be found because of the control/bondage that the minister placed on us.

We would go to meetings and we would talk about how many sisters we saw wearing make-up or trimmed hair on the way home or at a restaurant. It took me moving out of state and a long time to deprogram my thinking. It was pride of religion that had me in bondage to the point that I couldn't see people with the love of Christ. I couldn't see past the exterior to see the heart of someone who may have been hurting.

If we are to be Christians we should try our best to model ourselves after Christ. His message was one of love and compassion and not what so many of our fellow Apostolic demonstrate by their reluctance to reach out to all those that cross their paths in their lives.

I must add that I know some great UC and I have a wonderful time fellowshipping with them. Perhaps, in time, this would be the norm and there wouldn't be the divisive atmosphere we see today.

[Sam]

Originally Posted by chosenbyone

...
I must add that I know some great UC and I have a wonderful time fellowshipping with them. Perhaps, in time, this would be the norm and there wouldn't be the divisive atmosphere we see today.

Every so often there will be a post where members of this forum have gotten together for fellowship. Some times there will be a picture included of two brothers smiling. One will have on a short sleeved shirt and the other will have on a long sleeved shirt. But they will both be smiling (unless one is C.S. ---he never smiles in pictures) so there is fellowship there and love there even though there are differences, even though those differences show up as something as minor as sleeve length.

[PastorDaniel]

Originally Posted by crazyhomie

If there is so much truth in UPC, then why are folks so threatened by others who do not believe the same. Truthfully, most married couples don't agree on everything, some republican and democrat, but still live in the same house. Why is it that UPC pastors discourage their saints to fellowship even with others who are more liberal than they are? My brother wants to know.

That's one thing that drove me crazy. I remember moving to a certain city where there were four or five UPC's two ALJC's and several INDY's. The 1st UPC acted like they were the ONLY church in town. And to beat all...one of the UPC's was pastored by a Regional Executive Presbyter.

I have no real answer as to why some churches are like that. But I can say that this is one of the reason's that I'm not in the UPC anymore. I was never good enough. I even pastored two UPC churches but felt that I was always under the gun to please someone.

So I decided that I was only going to try and please God and finally left.

Originally Posted by PastorDaniel

That's one thing that drove me crazy. I remember moving to a certain city where there were four or five UPC's two ALJC's and several INDY's. The 1st UPC acted like they were the ONLY church in town. And to beat all...one of the UPC's was pastored by a Regional Executive Presbyter.

I have no real answer as to why some churches are like that. But I can say that this is one of the reason's that I'm not in the UPC anymore. I was never good enough. I even pastored two UPC churches but felt that I was always under the gun to please someone.

So I decided that I was only going to try and please God and finally left.

Tragically your story is repeated time and time again. Hopefully you weren't hurt in the process. Your not alone friend. God bless you and keep following Jesus!!!

[Sam]

When I was in Bible School in St. Paul, MN in 1956/1957 someone told me that there were about 30 Oneness Pentecostal churches in Bloomington, IN and many would not acknowledge or fellowship one another. I don't know how accurate that was back then or if it is accurate now.

[Jack Shephard]

Originally Posted by UltraCon

Yes the disagreements are worth fighting over because I see them as a salvation issue. What saints in your church may look at as bondage is to us part and parcel of our salvation. I happen to believe that holiness is Biblical and we teach seperation from the world. I'm not at all scared of our saints becoming liberal. If fact, in the religious wasteland that we live there are several liberal churches that would love to have our people come over and be "enlightened". Our people love holiness and they love truth and these two are one and the same. Here's how I really look at it. I grew up COG and if I got back to that it's exactely that, going back. If we preach seperation from the world and we go back to "liberalism" we are doing just that. I'm not condeming you or anyone else, these are just my views, this is what I preach. I knew about bondage when I was in the world smoking and drinking. I've been called to "be ye seperate from among them", i'm the one that has been liberated with an eye-opening experience.

You accaully think that some of those things are salvational? Is that because of your definition of reading the Bible or are you following suit to an organization or to what someone has taught you? I am making light of your convictions at all just asking a question?

You are exactly right when you say we are to be apart from the world. But the fact that dressing a certain way is looking like the world then by all means lets not drink coffee or go to Kroger Grocery store cause Lord knows that the world goes there. Don't drive a car the world does. Look we can be apart from the world with out saying that the only way to do it is dressing differently. That is a crazy thing to say that in order to unlike the world you have to fit this mold. Again not mocking you just asking and asserting. Another thing is that holiness has nothing to do with dress codes. It has everything to do with inward holiness that affects the outside. Modesty is the key word. Apostolic exalt "holiness standards" but the truth are there are not "holiness standards." Modesty protects our holiness, IMO.

Here is the thing my brother, if you went back to COG then you would be returning to your previous place or worship. But the fact is that God has made a change in us all. There are some that see things differently. I have been taught since I was 4 years old to dress right to get to heaven. But I studied it all myself and it is not that way. Now, I have no trouble in someone feeling they are essential. But the very truth is that in the Bible everyone in contact with Jesus was changed, but not everyone became the same mold. Even the disciple were very different. You quoted earlier, "how can two walk together unless they agree" truth is that we must walk together to agree. Even though you feel that the differences are salvation, even though most mods/libs do not agree is that still enough to keep the us apart? Our similarities should far out weigh or differences. In my eyes they do, but in your eyes.....

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by crazyhomie

Why is it that the favorite scripture UC's quote on holiness is this one...be ye seperate from among them". Do you even know what Holiness is? I don't mean to be critical friend, but let me share something with you. Holiness is defined biblically as how close you are to God. The closer you are to God, the holier you are. The Holy Bible is holy because it belongs to God. Israel is the Holy land because its close to God. In the old testament, the closer you were to God, the holier you became. Prophets were hoy men of God. The temple was holy. The outer court was holy, but the inner court was holier. Of course the holiest place of all was the "holy of holies" where God himself dwelt.
During the old testament and Jesus' day, there was varying degrees of holiness base upon your position, where you stood on the land and in the law. Now, Eph. 2:14, 18 describes what Jesus did for us. He tore down the walls of partition and we all have access in one Spirit to the Father. There are no more degrees of holiness because we have all been placed into Christ which is our holiness before God.
Gal. 3:27For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Holiness if found in Jesus and He alone. Man's holiness is as filthy rags. There is none holy, no not one...Finally holiness is not about what you do as it is about who you are and what position you hold. All believers after calvary have been made Holy in Christ. Now, conduct, behavior, sin issues, etc. are important, but do nothing to attain holiness. Bad conduct destroys your testimony and your faith which will lead to a lose of relationship with Christ. God bless and I still love you!!!

I'm not so sure your definition of holy is complete.

What about these verses in 1 Peter?

14 As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance:
15 But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;
16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.

This sounds like a work to me, something we have to do like striving against sin. We can't do anything unless we are connected to the vine, the grace of God is extended toward us to do what He has appointed us to do, and the Spirit dwelling in us helps us to mortify the deeds of the flesh.

Originally Posted by mizpeh

I'm not so sure your definition of holy is complete.

What about these verses in 1 Peter?

14 As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance:
15 But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;
16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.

This sounds like a work to me, something we have to do like striving against sin. We can't do anything unless we are connected to the vine, the grace of God is extended toward us to do what He has appointed us to do, and the Spirit dwelling in us helps us to mortify the deeds of the flesh.

I think you missed the point. We are now in Christ. Everything we do should be done in him...as he which hath called you is holy. Galatians 5 defines the work of the flesh and those who do these things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Gossip, slander, lies, etc is unholy because it does not belong to Christ and you cannot be a part of His kingdom if you do these things. This type of conversation is not who Christ is! Now regarding the last portion of text..16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy. This is a promise from God. God's holiness is now our holiness. When Jesus took his own blood into the holy of holies, he took us with him. And ye are complete in him...