Firearms Refresher Course

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by stmatthew

Stephen,

This is the biblical and balanced approach.

No matter how much it is said that it is not retribution, one cannot fulfill the commandment to "Love you enemies" and take hostile actions that take their life in the process.

I disagree. On the contrary one might say it can't be said to love you family and provide for them if you do NOT take hostile action that MIGHT take their life in the process. What Stephen said is no different than what I said. Death or killing is NOT the only way to do retribution or render evil for evil. It seems that on the one hand people are saying "no violence to defend youself or a loved one" and then on the other "no violence that results in death", but my point is and has been that sometimes no matter how hard you try if it is necessary to use physical violence to protect someone it might result in death. I do not think the bible condemns you for that to spend eternity in hell. Sure you might feel bad over it, but you might feel worse if you did nothing to stop someone else from being harmed.

BTW it is NOT retribution. Retribution is an attitude mostly. If someone insults you and you insul them back, that is retribution. Retribution has nothing to do with protecting or saving a life from an attacker. Retribution is an angry attitude that wants to get someone back for what they already did.

[Hoovie]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

I disagree. On the contrary one might say it can't be said to love you family and provide for them if you do NOT take hostile action that MIGHT take their life in the process. What Stephen said is no different than what I said. Death or killing is NOT the only way to do retribution or render evil for evil. It seems that on the one hand people are saying "no violence to defend youself or a loved one" and then on the other "no violence that results in death", but my point is and has been that sometimes no matter how hard you try if it is necessary to use physical violence to protect someone it might result in death. I do not think the bible condemns you for that to spend eternity in hell. Sure you might feel bad over it, but you might feel worse if you did nothing to stop someone else from being harmed.

BTW it is NOT retribution. Retribution is an attitude mostly. If someone insults you and you insul them back, that is retribution. Retribution has nothing to do with protecting or saving a life from an attacker. Retribution is an angry attitude that wants to get someone back for what they already did.

Actually, I feel strongly enough about this - that I would say it is better a Christian die and be with the Lord than for him to take the life of one who most assuradly is damned forever.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

This is talking about retribution. Pay back. Macho mas macho....gang banger shoots your neighborhood up...you go to the same...Man rapes you wife, you go hunt him down and kill him or beat him up.

Vengeance, retribution...

Rendering evil for evil is talking about the same thing as in Matthew 5:38-39 when the cheek is hit it is left to you to react.

Same thing when someone steals your coat you are to also give him your cloak. If the military compels you to go a mile you're to go two. You see how this all unfolds to be non-reactive. If they even take from you (property) you are to give them what you have left.

Can you show where vengeance means there is a space of time lapse before you retaliate? You keep bringing this word up as if there is some time passing between the time of assault and your reacting you have committed evil. If you shoot your attacker at the moment of crime then you are safe and have committed no offence.

Originally Posted by Praxeas

We are not talking either about someone that has "trasngressed against you"...like he stepped on your daisies and you blow his head off.

Could you show me how you get that from Matthew 5:38-48? Also do you know what's being said in Romans 12:14?

Rom 12:14 Bless them which PERSECUTE you: bless, and curse not.


The Greek word that is used for the English word PERSECUTE means to pursue (in a hostile manner). How do you separate personal (single person) defense and plural (family members) defense? What about countries? Iraq, Saddam Hussein, Osama Ben Laden? By your measure we are totally going after them "after the fact" so every solider (by your measure) is a murderer?

Please show me your interpretation,

Originally Posted by Praxeas

We are talking about someone that is breaking into your house and you are home...or someone that is attacking your wife and or kids or an estranged husband is about to stomp on the head of his wife and cave it in and you have the chance to stop him by some physical means....does not necessarily have to be killing, but any sort of physical means.

Bingo! There it is Praxeas, you just said it. I have stop more garbage from going down with verbal commands and hand actions. I have pried people off of each without even leaving a bruise. I have used my body as a human shield between myself and an angry dude trying to stab his girlfriend in a bar.

Prayer and the power of the Holy Ghost goes a long way. The same power that casts out devils and binds a demon possessed person without you having to choke or throttle them. Is the same power that can enable you to stop something bad from happening. I seen it happen, I've had it proven to me by the man who baptized me in Jesus name. He had a drunk employee attack him in his living room and I went to stop the man, my minister friend said Brother Dominic don't you do anything, and with that old Brother Harris took his large hand and laid it on the man's head and prayed in Jesus name, and the man went sober. Stone cold sober. It works!

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Just realize that sometimes death happens too.

Now wouldn't that be a shame? I know police officers who work here in Miami and Fort Lauderdale, and they always tell me "Brother Benincasa, I pray everyday that I am never in a position that I would have to use my weapon."

I tell them what I have told you here. There's no way around it.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Stephen Hoover

Actually, I feel strongly enough about this - that I would say it is better a Christian die and be with the Lord than for him to take the life of one who most assuradly is damned forever.

Wow, I love you.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Stephen Hoover

Actually, I feel strongly enough about this - that I would say it is better a Christian die and be with the Lord than for him to take the life of one who most assuradly is damned forever.

Well I think it's easier to say that now, but when you are faced with a real life situation where you might have to say....swing a shovel at a larger man to stop them from beating in their wifes skull...you are not only committing violence, but you are in a position where you might have to harm them.

BTW I would never argue such a recourse is to be taken lightly. Few cops feel good about taking a life even if theirs was threatened.

You might say it's the lesser of two evils perhaps...which do you do...protect and save you family which some would argue is scriptural or possibly kill someone that is not saved, which some would argue is also scripturally wrong.

[Hoovie]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Well I think it's easier to say that now, but when you are faced with a real life situation where you might have to say....swing a shovel at a larger man to stop them from beating in their wifes skull...you are not only committing violence, but you are in a position where you might have to harm them.

BTW I would never argue such a recourse is to be taken lightly. Few cops feel good about taking a life even if theirs was threatened.

You might say it's the lesser of two evils perhaps...which do you do...protect and save you family which some would argue is scriptural or possibly kill someone that is not saved, which some would argue is also scripturally wrong.

I do not say it lightly. And I would die for my own - in a heartbeat - but I would not, by the grace of God, try to kill the offender either. I did not just come up with this tonight. I have been taught this since I was a baby.

If one of us must die (God forbid) let it be me rather than a lost soul.

[stmatthew]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

I disagree. On the contrary one might say it can't be said to love you family and provide for them if you do NOT take hostile action that MIGHT take their life in the process. What Stephen said is no different than what I said. Death or killing is NOT the only way to do retribution or render evil for evil. It seems that on the one hand people are saying "no violence to defend youself or a loved one" and then on the other "no violence that results in death", but my point is and has been that sometimes no matter how hard you try if it is necessary to use physical violence to protect someone it might result in death. I do not think the bible condemns you for that to spend eternity in hell. Sure you might feel bad over it, but you might feel worse if you did nothing to stop someone else from being harmed.

BTW it is NOT retribution. Retribution is an attitude mostly. If someone insults you and you insul them back, that is retribution. Retribution has nothing to do with protecting or saving a life from an attacker. Retribution is an angry attitude that wants to get someone back for what they already did.

Prax,

From my POV, "Love Your Enemies" supersedes any attempt to take the life of another person for their acts against yourself or your family. If they are enemies of my wife, they are my enemies, and I am commanded to love them. One cannot fufill the command to love their enemies while taking their life at the same time.

But just so you have the balance, One full of love can love their enemy and at the same time grab hold of him and keep him from hurting the wife, the attacker, or himself, and have no anger towards the attacker that would cause him to do bodily harm to him.

[stmatthew]

Am I there yet?? I hope to never have to find out.

But as this thread is at a stalemate, I will back away to just read from this point on, unless my poster gets the better of me.

[Hoovie]

Originally Posted by stmatthew

Prax,

From my POV, "Love Your Enemies" supersedes any attempt to take the life of another person for their acts against yourself or your family. If they are enemies of my wife, they are my enemies, and I am commanded to love them. One cannot fufill the command to love their enemies while taking their life at the same time.

But just so you have the balance, One full of love can love their enemy and at the same time grab hold of him and keep him from hurting the wife, the attacker, or himself, and have no anger towards the attacker that would cause him to do bodily harm to him.

Amen.

[RandyWayne]

So that IS the command... to love your enemy. NOT to "let them do what they will to house and home without lifting a finger to stop them".
Sounds simple to me.