Apostoic worship??

[Michael The Disciple]

Let us recall a few things first. Joe Bandy started this thread questioning some of the practices that occur in UPC type Churches. Since I agreed with at least part of what he was saying I followed it for a while.

What I noticed was at least in the beginning of your rebuttal to him you were strongly defending against what he was putting forth. You hammered him about bowing or being prostrate as if that was ALL he thought was acceptable. It seemed like several of you were very hard on him.

So what I gathered was that the practices among UPC Churches were being praised very much and Joes questions were pretty much mocked.

As when Joes question about people speaking out loud in the Church in tongues or Preachers hollering tongues into the mic was given again it was rebuked even tho he had an excellent point.

Now I cant remember who all said what so this may have not been you. Frankly I dont feel like reading this entire thread again to pinpoint who said what in every case.

To me this is a PERFECT EXAMPLE of people just doing whatever they want in their way of worship.

Altho Paul and therefore Christ reproves such practice clearly will Pentecostals and Charismatics repent and come in line with the truth?

So at point in time I enter the thread which was started by a Brother who seemed to be looking for a more restrained yet spiritual form of worship....as defined by the thread starter which I understood perfectly.

He was referring to when saints sing and praise and what is called WORSHIP THE LORD IN PRACTICALLY EVERY APOSTOLIC CHURCH IN THE WORLD

So somewhere at that point I enter with a video stating if there had been music like that when my folks made me go to Church as a child...I would have begged them to take me!

So from the time I entered the thread what I have met with is I dont have a clue what worship is. We are told that basically worship is our entire life. Now to be serving God must entail our entire lives but I believe worship is certain acts of praise and adoration.

Joe gave a good definition of OT worship in bowing down to the Lord and falling before him. Instead of people agreeing with the definition of the word and perhaps encouraging him in what he was seeing people here attacked him mercilessly as if he was somehow wrong.

If in the OLD Testament bowing toward God is called worship SPECIFICALLY whats wrong with that? Does it mean one could not REJOICE IN GOD in the OTHER WAYS scripture mentions we should do? So the thread became all about the word "worship". What is it? You had no problem understanding initially when you were defending UPC type "wildness" as you called it once.

But when I brought the IHOP worship into the thread you changed. Then "worship" was not praising and adoring the Lord but it became ones entire life. I suppose that way fault could be found with IHOP and I brought out things among Apostolics that if you and I judged them we would call heresy.

So then the conversation becomes so complicated neither one of us really wanted to stay in it. So in my next post I will try to point out a few things where I think you wrote prove at least one point I am trying to make.

[KeptByTheWord]

I wanted to do a study of what apostolic worship means, according to scripture. Not sure if in this 60+ page thread that has been done.

According to scriptures where worship of God is described ... it was accompanied with an action... and it was not a musical instrument, or singing voice... it was an action...

2 Chronicles 20:18 And Jehoshaphat bowed his head with his face to the ground: and all Judah and the inhabitants of Jerusalem fell before the Lord, worshipping the Lord.

Job 1:20 Then Job arose, and rent his mantle, and shaved his head, and fell down upon the ground, and worshipped,

Exodus 34:8 And Moses made haste, and bowed his head toward the earth, and worshipped.

2 Chronicles 7:3 And when all the children of Israel saw how the fire came down, and the glory of the Lord upon the house, they bowed themselves with their faces to the ground upon the pavement, and worshipped, and praised the Lord, saying, For he is good; for his mercy endureth for ever.

2 Chronicles 29:28 And all the congregation worshipped, and the singers sang, and the trumpeters sounded: and all this continued until the burnt offering was finished.

2 Chronicles 29:29 And when they had made an end of offering, the king and all that were present with him bowed themselves, and worshipped.

2 Chronicles 29:30 Moreover Hezekiah the king and the princes commanded the Levites to sing praise unto the Lord with the words of David, and of Asaph the seer. And they sang praises with gladness, and they bowed their heads and worshipped.

Nehemiah 8:6 And Ezra blessed the Lord, the great God. And all the people answered, Amen, Amen, with lifting up their hands: and they bowed their heads, and worshipped the Lord with their faces to the ground.

Psalm 22:29 All they that be fat upon earth shall eat and worship: all they that go down to the dust shall bow before him: and none can keep alive his own soul.

Psalm 95:6 O come, let us worship and bow down: let us kneel before the Lord our maker.

Psalm 99:5 Exalt ye the Lord our God, and worship at his footstool; for he is holy.

Matthew 2:11 And when they were come into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother, and fell down, and worshipped him: and when they had opened their treasures, they presented unto him gifts; gold, and frankincense and myrrh.

Matthew 18:26 The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.

Matthew 28:9 And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held him by the feet, and worshipped him.

Mark 15:19 And they smote him on the head with a reed, and did spit upon him, and bowing their knees worshipped him.

Acts 10:25 And as Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him, and fell down at his feet, and worshipped him.

1 Corinthians 14:25 And thus are the secrets of his heart made manifest; and so falling down on his face he will worship God, and report that God is in you of a truth.

Revelation 4:10 The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,

Revelation 5:14 And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever.

Revelation 7:11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,

Revelation 11:16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,

Revelation 19:4 And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.

Revelation 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

Revelation 22:8 And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things. 9 Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.

True apostolic scriptural worship was not about the music/song/dance, but rather an act of bowing oneself to the ground. This entire 60+ page thread has centered almost entirely on music/voice. But scripturally, that is not what worship is

So now the question is... what should our present day apostolic worship look like with this scriptural understanding?

For myself, the most powerful times of being in the presence of the Lord was not in the song and the dance, but on my knees, with self completely dethroned, and my heart full of adoration for the Lord. It was these times, sometimes around a church altar, many times on my bed, or by my couch or rocking chair that my worship of the Lord involved my heart completely surrendered to Him... on my knees.

There is really a great importance to bending the knee in worship as can be seen with the weight of scripture.

[Michael The Disciple]

When you said this:

In the "old days" you had to calm folks down. Now we gotta pump em up?

What does THAT tell us?

Was it not in the context of "worship"?

[KeptByTheWord]

Originally Posted by Esaias

You described worship as prostration, falling prone before God. I asked if that is what you do in church and you indicated it is NOT what you do.

So, just to be clear, when you go to church, do you fall prone on your face for the duration of the worship portion? Or whenever a call to worship is given?

Originally Posted by n david

Tough luck if you're by yourself, then, eh?

I've too many experiences alone with God where I have felt His presence when I worship and praise Him. Whether it's praise and dance, or intercessory prayer while prostrate before Him -- whenever I call Him, He's there. It doesn't take two. It doesn't always include me being face down and prone.

Sometimes it's when I praise Him in the shout and dance. Sometimes it's when I bow or prostrate myself in quiet prayer. Sometimes it's in intercession when I can hardly form words in prayer.

There's no one formula for meeting with God. There's no one position in which we meet with Him.

Originally Posted by n david

So you take one verse and claim worship is only face down and prone?

Have you met David? ""And David danced before the LORD with all his might;""

Originally Posted by JoeBandy

Can you show me in scripture where IN THE PRESENCE OF GOD one does not fall or kneel?

Okay, so I went back for a few pages, and this is some of what I found. I provided the scripture references that Joe Bandy did not provide, at least so far I haven't found them.

Those of you scoffing at prone worship, how can you deny the weight of scripture, and what worship really means?

[Michael The Disciple]

Esaias:

Biblical Worship

That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Ghost. (Romans 15:16)

Worship in two aspects
Our daily life:

Wherefore, my beloved brethren, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath: For the wrath of man worketh not the righteousness of God. Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls. But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves. For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass: For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was. But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed. If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain. Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world. (James 1:19-27)

Also, corporate worship – when we come together:

Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, Concerning the feasts of the LORD, which ye shall proclaim to be holy convocations, even these are my feasts. (Leviticus 23:2)

Feasts = 'moed' or appointment, an appointed time or meeting.
mô‛êd mô‛êd mô‛âdâh
mo-ade', mo-ade', mo-aw-daw'
properly an appointment, that is, a fixed time or season; specifically a festival; conventionally a year; by implication, an assembly (as convened for a definite purpose); technically the congregation; by extension, the place of meeting; also a signal (as appointed beforehand):

Six days shall work be done: but the seventh day is the sabbath of rest, an holy convocation; ye shall do no work therein: it is the sabbath of the LORD in all your dwellings. (Leviticus 23:3)

Holy convocation = mik-raw'
something called out, that is, a public meeting (the act, the persons, or the place); also a rehearsal:

So God has 'feasts' or 'appointments' which are holy or sacred 'meetings' for His people. The first and primary appointed time is the weekly Sabbath. This is a time for God's people to gather together for a sacred or holy purpose: meeting with God.

Do you realize there is not one verse here that mentions this as WORSHIP? If I missed it please point it out. It describes the SERVICE OF GOD or his order but nowhere is it called "worship".

[KeptByTheWord]

I also want to make clear that there is an obvious difference in scripture between worship and praise. Most of the references to praise in scripture involve music, singing, dance, instruments etc. But worship always involved bowing to the ground, according to scripture.

So perhaps what we are calling apostolic worship, is more correctly termed apostolic praise.

Apostolic worship would be prone, on one's knees or face down on the ground. The four and twenty elders around the throne in heaven weren't praising, but worshiping the Lord.

[Michael The Disciple]

E

saias


Church = ekklesia
(Thayer's Definition)

1) a gathering of citizens called out from their homes into some public place, an assembly
1a) an assembly of the people convened at the public place of the council for the purpose of deliberating
1b) the assembly of the Israelites
1c) any gathering or throng of men assembled by chance, tumultuously
1d) in a Christian sense
1d1) an assembly of Christians gathered for worship in a religious meeting

The 'church' then is the gathered together assembly of believers, both in the sense of the gathering, and the ones gathered together. Christians are called together into a relationship with Christ and one another. What do God's people do when they gather together to worship God?

Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens; A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man. For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices: wherefore it is of necessity that this man have somewhat also to offer. For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law: Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount. (Hebrews 8:1-5)

By looking at the old covenant system of worship, we can see a type or discern the pattern of heavenly, Spiritual worship.
There was a tabernacle – a tent with an outer courtyard, a wash basin, a brass altar for burning sacrifices, a tent building with the first room containing a golden menorah, table of shewbread, and a golden altar for offering incense. A curtain, behind which is the holy of holies, containing the ark of the covenant. The ark was a gold covered box in which was the Ten Commandments written on the two stone tables, covered with a lid that was called 'the mercy seat', with two cherubim carved on it, and served as a sort of throne. There was a daily (“continual”) sacrifice, once in the evening, and once in the morning. This pointed to Christ being a continual sacrifice that made the whole system of worship sanctified, or acceptable to God.There was a lighting of the candlestick, and offering of incense before the inner curtain at the golden altar of incense. People also brought to the priests their personal offerings of various types – sin and tresspass offerings, voluntary free will peace offerings, etc. Only priests could minister in the tabernacle properly.

By him therefore let us offer the sacrifice of praise to God continually, that is, the fruit of our lips giving thanks to his name. (Hebrews 13:15)
We have an altar, whereof they have no right to eat which serve the tabernacle. (Hebrews 13:10)
But to do good and to communicate forget not: for with such sacrifices God is well pleased. (Hebrews 13:16)
Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ. (1Peter 2:5)

The old covenant system of worship is a pattern, or shadow, or type, or picture of the new covenant worship. The church is called together to offer up spiritual sacrifices under the new covenant, which include not only our godly living, sharing with one another, and serving one another, but also the sacrifices or offerings of praise and prayer. Here are some elements of Biblical prayer:

Standing in prayer:

At that time the LORD separated the tribe of Levi, to bear the ark of the covenant of the LORD, to stand before the LORD to minister unto him, and to bless in his name, unto this day. (Deuteronomy 10:8)
Who shall ascend into the hill of the LORD? or who shall stand in his holy place? (Psalm 24:3)
Ye that stand in the house of the LORD, in the courts of the house of our God, (Psalm 135:2)
And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses. (Mark 11:25)
And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner. (Luke 18:13)
After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; (Revelation 7:9)

Here when you get down to saying what happens when the Church WORSHIPS...its exactly what I believe it is.

PRAISE AND PRAYER.

[KeptByTheWord]

It saddened me to see people scoffing in this thread at being prone and falling to one's knees, which is really true worship, according to the scriptures.

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord

I also want to make clear that there is an obvious difference in scripture between worship and praise. Most of the references to praise in scripture involve music, singing, dance, instruments etc. But worship always involved bowing to the ground, according to scripture.

So perhaps what we are calling apostolic worship, is more correctly termed apostolic praise.

Apostolic worship would be prone, on one's knees or face down on the ground. The four and twenty elders around the throne in heaven weren't praising, but worshiping the Lord.

This brings greater clarity to the subject.

[Michael The Disciple]

KBTW posted:

2 Chronicles 7:3 And when all the children of Israel saw how the fire came down, and the glory of the Lord upon the house, they bowed themselves with their faces to the ground upon the pavement, and worshipped, and praised the Lord, saying, For he is good; for his mercy endureth for ever.

This contains both praise and worship! It was something they were doing in reverence and adoration to YAH.

The way worship has been defined here makes worship the entirety of our lives taken together. Our lives must be lived in spirit and truth but thats not the definition of the word.

Jesus meant for our WORSHIP to be acceptable it must be done in spirit and in truth.