The Sabbath Day, Should You Keep or not Keep?

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by mfblume

But lay it all to rest. Show me one man before Moses who kept it.

How about God Himself keeping it?

In any event, I already demonstrated that since the Sabbath was made for man, and since it was made before the Fall, it was made for Adam. And since it sanctified before the Fall, it was sanctified for Adam. Ergo, it is likely Adam kept the Sabbath.

But let us suppose NOBODY kept the Sabbath prior to the Exodus. What then? If nobody obeys a commandment does that mean the commandment is not in force? No, of course not.

You would have to demonstrate the laws, commandments, statutes, judgments etc that are referred to as existing prior Sinai as being anything other than the laws, commandments, statutes, and judgments of God, including the ten commandments.

Man shall live by every word of God. God says work six days and rest the seventh day and keep it holy to God.

Sabbath keepers do just that.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Esaias

(continued from previous)

As for being for Israel alone, this is refuted by Jesus' own words when He declared the Sabbath was made for man.

One has to study the picture and get the sense that Christ, as in this instance, was meaning for us to get. The reference to man does not demand all mankind.

By man must come the resurrection since it was by man came death. Does this mean death came by every man? And does every man bring resurrection?

The Sabbath was made prior to the Fall, therefore it was made for Adam (there was no Israel at that time).

It was made prior to the fall for man, like Adam was made in the figure of Jesus, though Adam knew nothing about that. We have to look at similar instances of the examples you give. And so far I found similar instances in resurrection and death coming by MAN to show how MAN does not necessarily mean every single man, and also how something in Adam's day was ordained but without Adam knowing anything about it. And if one might say MAYBE ADAM DID KNOW about his creation in the figure of Christ, one woudl only be compounding assumption upon assumption.

It was given to Israel as part of the covenant law made at Sinai (actually, it was given to them before that, as previously demonstrated). But was Israel alone meant to keep Sabbath?

Yes. When God instituted sabbath it was a sign between Him and Israel. Not Him and the whole creation of humanity.

Exodus 31:17 KJV It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.

Deuteronomy 4:5-8 KJV Behold, I have taught you statutes and judgments, even as the LORD my God commanded me, that ye should do so in the land whither ye go to possess it. (6) Keep therefore and do them; for this is your wisdom and your understanding in the sight of the nations, which shall hear all these statutes, and say, Surely this great nation is a wise and understanding people. (7) For what nation is there so great, who hath God so nigh unto them, as the LORD our God is in all things that we call upon him for? (8) And what nation is there so great, that hath statutes and judgments so righteous as all this law, which I set before you this day?

Israel was given the law and was expected to live it out in the sight of the nations. The nations were to be impressed with the Divine origin and righteousness of the law (including the Sabbath commandment). To what purpose? Just to ooh and ah at Israel? No, but to LEARN TO FOLLOW ISRAEL'S EXAMPLE.

No. It was a sign between God and Israel, and we have to consider that when reading your reference in Deut. Again, all I see is reading things into statements that are simply not necessarily meant to be understood in those statements. That seems to be the whole overall nature of sabbath keeping arguments. Same thing over and over. Reading into a text a predetermined belief.

The nations were to learn the law of God from Israel:

Isaiah 2:3 KJV And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.

The nations were to blessed for keeping Sabbath:

Isaiah 56:1-8 KJV Thus saith the LORD, Keep ye judgment, and do justice: for my salvation is near to come, and my righteousness to be revealed. (2) Blessed is the man that doeth this, and the son of man that layeth hold on it; that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and keepeth his hand from doing any evil. (3) Neither let the son of the stranger, that hath joined himself to the LORD, speak, saying, The LORD hath utterly separated me from his people: neither let the eunuch say, Behold, I am a dry tree. (4) For thus saith the LORD unto the eunuchs that keep my sabbaths, and choose the things that please me, and take hold of my covenant; (5) Even unto them will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off. (6) Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant; (7) Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people. (8) The Lord GOD which gathereth the outcasts of Israel saith, Yet will I gather others to him, beside those that are gathered unto him.

So, the Sabbath is not just for Israel, it is for all mankind, as is all the law of God.

We are in fact at Mount Zion now. (Heb 12:22). Does that mean we are in Israel at the actual mountain? Of course not. But it fulfills that prophecy in Isaiah. To take this far too literal is to abrogate the truth of Heb 12.

Even YOU claim spiritualization of things, since you claim we are in Jerusalem spiritually, when the bible told people to go to Jerusalem to keep some of the feasts. But that's picking and choosing what is spiritual and what is not. You make Jerusalem spiritual but the keeping of the sabbath among the same prophecies is not spiritual. All the while we have Paul stating sabbath was a shadow.

Israel of course largely failed in their mission under the old covenant, hence the need for the new covenant. But the new covenant did not dispense with the laws and commandments, statutes and judgments of God. Rather, the new covenant writes those laws of God upon the hearts of those who enter the new covenant through Christ:

The ritualized observances and ordinances of Law were shed for the realities of their antitypes.

Jeremiah 31:31-33 KJV Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: (32) Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: (33) But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

And again:

Ezekiel 36:25-27 KJV Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. (26) A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. (27) And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

Under the new covenant, there is not a "new law"*, a new set of commands, but the same laws, commandments, statutes, judgments, etc that have been of old, written upon the heart of the believer who is empowered to obey and thus fulfill the righteousness of the law. Same law, in fact the same people. The difference is where the law is written. Previously it was written in tables of stone, but now it is written in our hearts.

And the observance-type ordinances have passed away, like sabbath, for the body that cast those shadows. Do you believe literal animals will also be offered in sacrifice according to Ezekiel?

*Note: There is a "change of the law" regarding the priesthood and the particular manner in which offerings are performed. Animal sacrifices, Levitical priests descended from Aaron, etc have been changed to the Melchizedek priesthood of Christ and the offerings that flow from that priesthood. See the epistle to the Hebrews for clarification. But the moral, civil, individual, etc laws of God which were not strictly dependent upon the Sinaitic Covenant itself with its Aaronic priesthood and system of offerings were around long before Mt Sinai, and continued long after that covenant had been subsumed into ("replaced by") the new covenant.

Sabbath day is not moral in nature at all. The sabbath is Jesus.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Esaias

How about God Himself keeping it?

I addressed that. God is not a man.

In any event, I already demonstrated that since the Sabbath was made for man, and since it was made before the Fall, it was made for Adam. And since it sanctified before the Fall, it was sanctified for Adam. Ergo, it is likely Adam kept the Sabbath.

And you did not yet respond to my counter argument about those very points.

But let us suppose NOBODY kept the Sabbath prior to the Exodus. What then? If nobody obeys a commandment does that mean the commandment is not in force? No, of course not.

It means it was not for all mankind as you are trying to say it does. And from there we then have to deal with whether or not it is sitll in effect.

You would have to demonstrate the laws, commandments, statutes, judgments etc that are referred to as existing prior Sinai as being anything other than the laws, commandments, statutes, and judgments of God, including the ten commandments.

Abraham had a commandment to leave Ur. Was that part of the ten commandments. The word COMMANDMENTS does not have to refer to those ten in every case. The only way sabbath keeping reasoning works is to insist it always means the ten. And that's not the case.

Man shall live by every word of God. God says work six days and rest the seventh day and keep it holy to God.

Sabbath keepers do just that.

Much the chagrin of the Lord who informed us they were shadows fulfilled in Christ.

Hey you can keep saying the same thing I already addressed about commandments, so I can repeat the truth of Col 2:16-17.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Esaias

You have it backwards. Not one time did any new testament teacher tell us the Sabbath had been abrogated, repealed, abolished, or so much as changed from the seventh day of the week to anything (or "anyone") else.

Yes we are told. In Gal 4 we are told to not keep days, months or years. And the context, as I debated with you before, was law being a schoolmaster that is now absent.

[quote]The abolitionist (mild antinomian) position is that "unless it is restated in the new testament [/.quote]

It is . Gal 3, Col 2, Rom 14.

it is repealed, abolished, done away with, not obligatory." The Biblical, theonomic, new testament position is that "unless it is declared to be repealed, abolished, done away with, or not obligatory in the new testament it still stands."

The new testament contains no new replacement Sinai.

Sinai was not replaced. It was done away.

There was no repeal. Jesus forbids us to even think that He came to repeal, abolish, or do away with any single jot or tittle of the law of God.

You confuse fulfill with continue. Jesus fulfilled it as He fulfilled animal sacrifices. they were shadows of His sacrifice as the day is a shadow of His rest.

Unlike the Pharisees, whose religious system specialised in finding loopholes and ways and means of NOT actually obeying God's commandments, Jesus said our righteousness must EXCEED theirs or we would never inherit the kingdom of God. Our righteousness begins with the pardon of our transgressions, and culminates in our being conformed to the image of Christ by the power of His Spirit causing us to walk in His ways.

Exceeding the righteousness of the pharisees is of the nature of things like the heart refraining from an immaterial act whereas they focused on the material act.

You once stated "anything that was sin before the cross is still sin after the cross." Was it sin before the cross to mow your yard or do other secular work on the seventh day of the week? Was it sin before the cross to ignore the seventh day's holiness?

Then according to yourself, it must of necessity STILL BE SIN TO DO THOSE THINGS.

And I also said that Jesus is the real sabbath that the day foreshadowed and I keep the ORIGINAL sabbath.

You're not bringing anything new to the table, except for the responses you give to actual proposed thoughts I provide. So I remind you how I responded to the older material already.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Esaias

So, Abraham being told to move to Canaan was God's commandments, statutes, and laws?

Okie dokie.

One of them. Abraham was given promise 430 years before law. Paul distinctly said that. So, how does Abraham have the law if the law was not given til 430 years later?

Galatians 3:17 KJV And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

Or let me put it this way. Abraham had the ordinances and statutes that are law 430 years before they were given? Gotcha!

[mfblume]

Clearly responses made to sabbath arguments in the past are being forgotten, as evident from the repeitition of those arguments as though we never responded to them before.

So, since thoughts are being forgotten, let me repeat something I stated on this forum before. And if memory serves me well, I do not think a sabbatarian ever responded.

Gal 4 teaches to not keep days, months and years. Sabbatarians consistently say this refers to paganism. That cannot be the case because not only was the context from Gal 3 a note that schoolmastery over Israel is over and done with, which includes feasts and holy days, but the noun "elements" implies a NECESSARY AND GOOD FOUNDATION for all that follows, making it impossible to refer to pagan holidays!

Now, can someone address this and what elements actually mean, and how they can refer to pagan times, when the term means NECESSARY building blocks?

Galatians 4:9-10 KJV But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage? (10) Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years.

I cannot recall someone responding to this, if they did. Maybe I forgot, too. lol

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Clearly responses made to sabbath arguments in the past are being forgotten, as evident from the repeitition of those arguments as though we never responded to them before.

That's one of the reasons I had somewhat backed off getting involved in debating on this thread - the arguments of the antisabbatarians just keep getting recycled, like a merry-go-round.

[Steven Avery]

Originally Posted by mfblume

.... Sinai was not replaced. It was done away...I keep the original sabbath....

Why?

What is your authority for keeping any sabbath?

=============

Originally Posted by mfblume

[The Sabbath ..] was made prior to the fall for man ...

Originally Posted by mfblume

When God instituted sabbath it was a sign between Him and Israel. Not Him and the whole creation of humanity.

Exodus 31:12-18
And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying,

Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you.

Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people.

Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.

Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.
17
It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.

And he gave unto Moses, when he had made an end of communing with him upon mount Sinai, two tables of testimony, tables of stone, written with the finger of God.

Exodus 31 was not the institution of the sabbath. That section was acknowledging one aspect of the creation sabbath, one reason why it would be a perpetual covenant for Israel.

Galatians 6:16
And as many as walk according to this rule,
peace be on them, and mercy,
and upon the Israel of God.

And it even says in the verse 17, the one that was highlighted, when it was instituted.

Exodus 31:17
... for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.

As you acknowledged:

Originally Posted by mfblume

[The Sabbath ..] was made prior to the fall for man ...

Steven

[Steven Avery]

Originally Posted by mfblume

More time wasted on generalities than actual discussion.

Originally Posted by Esaias

... I had somewhat backed off getting involved in debating on this thread - the arguments of the antisabbatarians just keep getting recycled, like a merry-go-round.

Well, the arguments vary, and on this thread have a type of creative speculative desperation.

The target is clear, no observance of sabbath, any seven-day cycle in the Bible is abrogated and re-spiritualized as simply being Jesus. And everything is interpreted to try to support that idea.

My position:
You can tell how important a scriptural teaching or doctrine is by how convoluted are the arguments marshaled in opposition.

Steven

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Steven Avery

Exodus 31:12-18
And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying,

Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you.

Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people.

Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.

Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.
17
It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.

And he gave unto Moses, when he had made an end of communing with him upon mount Sinai, two tables of testimony, tables of stone, written with the finger of God.

Exodus 31 was not the institution of the sabbath. That section was acknowledging one aspect of the creation sabbath, one reason why it would be a perpetual covenant for Israel.

Galatians 6:16
And as many as walk according to this rule,
peace be on them, and mercy,
and upon the Israel of God.

And it even says in the verse 17, the one that was highlighted, when it was instituted.

Exodus 31:17
... for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.

I notice in the passage you quoted that Sabbath keeping was a sign between Israel and God because God created everything in six days and rested the seventh. Thus, Sabbath keeping was a sign that Israel belonged to God, that they were the people of God.

And so it is today - it is a sign (one of several) identifying the true God and His people.

Revelation 14:6-7 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, (7) Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.