Apostolic But Not Believing Jesus is The Father?

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by Aquila

I truly believe in the reality of the man, Jesus Christ... and His Father, God Almighty.

I agree but add that Jesus is his own Father as well as mine.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

See, I don't make this stuff up. We have people saying two persons

It all depends upon what one means by "person". I see the man Jesus Christ as being a complete an authentic "human person" who clearly has a distinct sense of "self" as it relates to His Father. However, Jesus Himself states that He is "in" the Father and that the Father is "in" Him. This expresses a mutual indwelling, a union of being. They are... a single being. The man, Jesus Christ, and the Father are... "one". This "oneness" of spiritual essence allows each to partake in all that the other is. Therefore, it can be said that the man Jesus Christ was also God... and that in the man Jesus Christ... God had become a man.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

One does "residing in God" mean? Is the word "God" a synonym for "building"?

Expand upon the possible meaning of "in". It isn't like being "in" a building or a vehicle. Jesus states that He is "in" the Father and that the Father is "in" Himself. I see this as a mutual "indwelling" of "being". For example, if you take a glass that is half filled with wine and a glass that is half filled with water. Pour them together into a decanter. Now... is the wine "in" the water or is the water "in" the wine? Both. And for all intents and purposes... they are now inseparable.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Aquila you are using undefined terms as if we all use them the same

"Oneness" as it pertains to "Oneness Theology" has to do with the Oneness of God..not a Unity of God and someone else.

God is One (Person). One in Number.

I know what "Oneness Theology" states. I'm talking about what we see in the Bible. I'm talking about how Jesus describes His oneness with the Father... in His own words.

John 10:30
30 I and my Father are one. (KJV)

John 10:38
38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him. (KJV)

John 12:45
45 And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me. (KJV)

John 14:7-10
7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. (KJV)

If we can't trust the words of Jesus to mean and imply what they clearly mean and imply... what can we trust? The only way to see "Oneness" as classical "Oneness Theology" presents it is... to impose Oneness Theology upon the text and argue that Christ's words and use of language can't be trusted... just as Rev. Blume admitted.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

God is One (Person). One in Number.

A "person" can be defined as one's self-conscious reality, a "self". We see two distinct self-conscious realities between the Father and the Son. They are one as it relates to being... distinct as it relates to personality.

2 Corinthians 5:19 (KJV)
19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself,

1 Timothy 2:5 (KJV)
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

John 14:7-10 (KJV)
7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

So it's settled. Aquila is not Oneness. He is a Unitarian who sees two persons, one human and one God

Eh, not so much Unitarian. Unitarianism denies the deity of Jesus. I'd say... closer to Monarchian. However, most Monarchians are Modalists or Dynamic Monarchian (believing that Jesus became God at His baptism or ascension). I see Christ as being both man and God from conception. Both realities in an inseparable union (a state of "oneness) from Christ's conception. So, it's like Monarchianism with a hint of Nestorian influence.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Why can't there be a distinction of Manifestation? Why can't there be a distinction of Natures?

Why can't the same Person say "I" as a Man because He has a Human nature?

For me, it's a matter of language. Even in my understanding, the man (Jesus Christ) is a manifestation of the Father. He was fashioned in the express image of God's own person. So, the human person of Jesus (the man) is still a reflection of the Father's person, albeit in an authentic human being.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

I agree but add that Jesus is his own Father as well as mine.

I look at it like this... we both can say that Jesus is His own Father. However, how we define that reality differs. I believe that Jesus is His own Father because He is "one" with the Father, partaking in all that the Father is. So Jesus is both the Son of God... and is also the Father. He is both man and God.

If you walked the earth with Jesus, you'd get to know Him as a man. He'd teach. He'd laugh. He'd eat. He'd use the restroom. He'd sleep. He'd rest. He'd pray and speak of His Heavenly Father. He'd express love for His Heavenly Father. He'd even have conversations with His Heavenly Father. He'd fast. He'd cry. He'd sweat. He'd bleed. However... at times you'd feel something otherworldly emanating from deep within Him. Something emanating from deep within the very core of His being. Something powerful. Something that has authority over all creation. Something that speaks to the winds... bringing them into obedience. Something that raises the dead and heals all manner of sickness. Something indescribable. You'd sense GOD Himself at the core of Christ's own person. You'd realize that He is more than just a man. He is also... God.

However, keep in mind...God did not reside in Christ as a vehicle. God resided in and permeated Christ's very being. A Oneness so complete, so majestic, and so divine that in Christ it can be said that God became a man... and that this very same man was also God.

No other religion elevates Christ to such an infinite height of majesty and honor. No other religion expresses Christ's true person to such an infinite degree. Most religions merely make Christ a prophet. No... Christ was not just a prophet. Christ was the human tabernacle of God Himself. To deny this imperils the soul... and reduces Christ to being either a lunatic or a liar.

All authority and power has been delivered to Christ Jesus. He will judge Krishna. He will judge Buddha. He will judge Mohammed. He will judge Nanak. He will judge the followers of every false prophet and madman. He will judge all men in accordance to the Father's will as it relates to the Gospel. Through Him, the Father will judge. Because they are one

2 Corinthians 5:19 (KJV)
To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

Who can find anything unbiblical about this understanding? So far, I've been told that it contradicts "Oneness Theology". However, I have yet to be told that this understanding contradicts the Bible itself.

[Aquila]

Denying the human person (or "self") of the man, Jesus Christ, makes every prayer, conversation, and interaction between Himself and the Father a farcical illusion.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Denying the human person (or "self") of the man, Jesus Christ, makes every prayer, conversation, and interaction between Himself and the Father a farcical illusion.

But that is throwing human limits on God's abilities again.