I've known some very conservative men who were very very strong on the grace and mercy of God and preached the Cross consistently and powerfully.
On the other hand, I've known some so called Conservatives, Moderates and even Liberals who had a hard time showing grace and mercy to others even though it had been shown, demonstrated and granted to them over and over again not just by God Himself but by their own brothers and sisters. I'm not sure what emphasis they place/d on Calvary and the Cross, or if they truly understood/understand what transpired there.
Felicity is right, you can't paint everyone with the same brush no matter what their label... Lib or Con.
No matter what convictions they adhere to, you can't lump them all together.
For every hard, harsh or critical person there is one who holds the same standards and is filled with love and compassion.
As I said previously, I don't know any one who will send you to hell for wearing a wedding ring while driving a Bently, so I can neither confirm nor deny the existance of such messed up folk.
__________________ Mrs. LPW
Psalm 19:14
Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer.
Hi E.B. I hope you and your family had a wonderful holiday and a blessed New Year.
I thank you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pelathais
A couple of statements stand out to me here. The first one was "who happened to show up..." Now, whatever your view on the outcome of any vote, the UPCI by laws and Constitution specifically state that the voting members at General Conference will decide the issue. It's not a random, "who ever shows up" kind of affair. It is the official voting and business sessions. All ministers in the UPC are schooled on this.
Still you must admit that the voting is for those who show up. If you happen to have other things going down, like life, job, death in the family, or the most popular NO MONEY, then you're out of luck. You are not heard, and you don't get to vote. So did all the UPCI card holders vote? I would say no. How about living in a country that if you didn't make the trek to its capital you weren't able to vote? See what I mean? So, my opinion remains, those who went are those who voted.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pelathais
The other thing that stands out is "change." Resolution #4 in Tampa merely unchanged a change that was made in 1977. I think most of the ministers in Tampa remember 1977 and the effects that vote had on the org. This on again/off again ban of TV ministry hardly even effects the org. And just look at the web sites of some of the Tulsa coordinators. These guys know how to use video and have been doing so for years. Res. #4 isn't the issue here.
Pelathais res# 4 is more than an issue, and the change is still an issue. If the Tulsa group was so video motivated as you claim then they should’ve shouted to have television.
Alas they didn't share your thoughts, but felt it was time to leave. Did they want to? Would they of stayed? Who can tell it's all water under the bridge now. UPCI is heading in her own direction, and becoming a what the group wants it to become. No sour grapes, they voted, and they won.
Tulsa-Types? That's what I'm addressing, calling these Brothers Tulsa-Types. Again, they didn't change, and the main issue is more than advertising on the tube.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pelathais
Again, it's the GC that speaks for the org, unless you're suggesting a change. But change is bad, right? And the one's who vote for Res. #4 have been in favor of this the whole time. They didn't change.
Change is bad when it doesn't hold the group together, remember you're talking about a church right.
Funny thing to try for unity and keeping the org in one piece. Hey keep kicking people out and voting new ideas to make a buck, sooner or later it will be a polished and sparkling version of Quick Start.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pelathais
Amen, and amen to the statements about brothers. But I don't think SH was taking potshots at anyone. It seemed to me that he was appealing for unity and speaking against divisivness. Remember, the brother who is calling and writing to the preachers in the UPCI directory is still our brother.
And as he goes down the list making promises and assigning committee duties to his recruits he is in fact working against the Fundamental Doctrine of the UPCI. So, as brothers we should all be speaking out against the errors of our wayward brothers and commend those who resist this error.
Wayward Brothers? Are those who are part of the Tulsa Conference wayward? Please clarify.
__________________ "all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed."
~Declaration of Independence
Felicity is right, you can't paint everyone with the same brush no matter what their label... Lib or Con.
No matter what convictions they adhere to, you can't lump them all together. For every hard, harsh or critical person there is one who holds the same standards and is filled with love and compassion.
As I said previously, I don't know any one who will send you to hell for wearing a wedding ring while driving a Bently, so I can neither confirm nor deny the existance of such messed up folk.
C'mon Sis, you know that standards keeping makes you mean, surly, phariseeical, hypocritlcal and, most of all, legalistic murders of innocents. That is what convictions and standards keeping will do to you!
EB, Pel adequately addressed your concerns regarding unchanging "a change that was made in 1977".
I just need to tell you, I meant nothing disparaging with "Tulsa Types". Please know that even though I question the motives (I understand most of it is not about TV) of some who are Tulsa bound, I do not for a moment question whether they are my brothers. In fact, unlike some others, I believe it quite possible the meeting and what will follow is the will of God, and through this "division" may come groweth and maturity for Oneness Pentecostals.
__________________ "all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed."
~Declaration of Independence
The statement I bolded has no relevance to my post whatsoever. The parallel was of your own tainted, biased imagination and i can't believe you would use the TRUTH of the Word of God to draw such a vile parallel.
i am not opposed to TRUTH being a parallel.. what I am opposed to is you comparing these men to SAUL who was an UNREGENERATE SINNER with convictions that made him a murderer. I am dumbfounded that the master of the religion free zone would be comfortable with such an unGRACious characterization and parallel! I guess you have one of those mirrors like the wicked witch that, when you pass by, tells you you are gracious and of beautiful spirit regardless what you say or do.
The apostle Paul was a ZEALOUS defender of the word of God and all that he knew. He was defending to the death what God had originally done int he OT. I'm not justifying his consent to murder. He was just doing the EXACT same thing that the UC's do and that is condemning the preachers of the grace of God as heretics. I know it all too well, and only one who has been one can really understand. If you can't understand, then you probably haven't worn the label. Count yourself lucky!
What I have said has not an ounce of ungraciousness, it just simply is the truth.
__________________
"Those who go after the "Sauls" among us often slay the Davids among us." Gene Edwards
Felicity is right, you can't paint everyone with the same brush no matter what their label... Lib or Con.
No matter what convictions they adhere to, you can't lump them all together.
For every hard, harsh or critical person there is one who holds the same standards and is filled with love and compassion.
As I said previously, I don't know any one who will send you to hell for wearing a wedding ring while driving a Bently, so I can neither confirm nor deny the existance of such messed up folk.
I've been treated with so much love and kindness by so many people, and many of them would be regarded as very conservative. There is no way on earth that I could lump Conservative or Ultra-Conservative preachers under the mean and hard label.
Some of my best friends (in the UPC) would be known as very conservative. When we were overseas in HK one of the missionary wives I was closest with and loved so much had previously been AMF. On the other hand, one of my other closest friends was a Southern Baptist missionary wife.
To define people as hard and mean just because they may fall under the "conservative" banner is just simply stupid .... er .... I mean unintelligent. Hehehe.
__________________ Smiles & Blessings.... ~Felicity Welsh~ (surname courtesy of Jim Yohe)
C'mon Sis, you know that standards keeping makes you mean, surly, phariseeical, hypocritlcal and, most of all, legalistic murders of innocents. That is what convictions and standards keeping will do to you!
That's Me! And I'm a MOD they tell me.
__________________ Mrs. LPW
Psalm 19:14
Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer.
Pel loves that story... I have seen it a few times here on the forum.
He really should be able to come up with more than a single high profile example if he expects me to embrace this as a valid type of UC tolerance and civility.
I really don't want to even try to "convert" you to my sometimes cynical outlook of the brethren, Brother Phil. Watching people bite and devour is sad. Keep shining your light on the positives. Those are the images that we all want to have in our minds. But we also don't want to neglect those who have suffered from injustice. They deserve some of that "positive light" too.
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