Liturgical Worship - Do you like it?

[Antipas]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Anything symbolic represents a physical actuality. So if John actually saw in the vision a lamb that represents Jesus, then what He actually saw was only symbolic. He did not see Jesus as a man with brown hair and brown eyes about 5'6". He saw a lamb. So whatever He saw in the rest of the visions, by the same token, was not actually occurring in Heaven, but symbolized what actually occurred. That means we cannot take anything from Revelation and say those events actually occurred in Heaven.

I think you have to remember that this is apocalyptic literature. It was purposefully written by John using symbols to preserve it's truth...for the day was at hand. Rome would have destroyed the book...but to the Romans it appeared to be merely a fairytale.

I contend that John was caught up in the Spirit on the Lord's day and indeed was transported before the very throne of God. There he saw Heavenly events as they transpired and visions of what was to soon come to pass.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Antipas

I think you have to remember that this is apocalyptic literature. It was purposefully written by John using symbols to preserve it's truth...for the day was at hand. Rome would have destroyed the book...but to the Romans it appeared to be merely a fairytale.

I contend that John was caught up in the Spirit on the Lord's day and indeed was transported before the very throne of God. There he saw Heavenly events as they transpired and visions of what was to soon come to pass.

Then you have to say that Jesus was actually a lamb in heaven at that point in time, not symbolically so, and that is simply not true.

Bro., the book says, itself, that the incense was actually prayers, and that incense was therefore not actually in existence in Heaven.

[Antipas]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Then you have to say that Jesus was actually a lamb in heaven at that point in time, and that is simply not true.

Bro., the book says, itself, that the incense was actually prayers, and that incense was therefore not actually in existence in Heaven.

Not necessarily. John saw a vision which he described in vivid symbolism.

If you're right, John wasn't really in heaven, really didn't see what he said he saw....maybe it was just something John ate. lol

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Antipas

Not necessarily. John saw a vision which he described in vivid symbolism.

If you're right, John wasn't really in heaven, really didn't see what he said he saw....maybe it was just something John ate. lol

The you have to say Jesus was actually a lamb with seven eyes and horns.

Can't have it both ways.

[Antipas]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Then you have to say that Jesus was actually a lamb in heaven at that point in time, not symbolically so, and that is simply not true.

Bro., the book says, itself, that the incense was actually prayers, and that incense was therefore not actually in existence in Heaven.

Incense accompanied prayer in the OT Temple....which was a an earthly mirror of a heavenly reality.

Do you believe that Heaven is REAL or do you believe in a bright light at death?

[Antipas]

Originally Posted by mfblume

The you have to say Jesus was actually a lamb with seven eyes and horns.

Can't have it both ways.

Yes I can have it both ways.

John saw Jesus...and described him using vivid symbolism.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Antipas

Yes I can have it both ways.

John saw Jesus...and described him using vivid symbolism.

Now you know better than that.

[Antipas]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Now you know better than that.

So you don't believe that he saw Jesus?

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Antipas

Incense accompanied prayer in the OT Temple....which was a an earthly mirror of a heavenly reality.

He saw incense in HEAVEN. So why would an earthly mirror be in Heaven? The reality in heaven is prayer. Not incense. Since John saw incense in heaven, He saw the a symbol of what is actually in Heaven, and not what is actually there, itself. Incense does not exist in Heaven. The reality is prayer alone.

Do you believe that Heaven is REAL or do you believe in a bright light at death?

Heaven is real, but John did not see movies of what actually is in Heaven. He saw only symbols of it. The realities were translated into symbols.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Antipas

So you don't believe that he saw Jesus?

He did not directly see Jesus, but saw a SYMBOL OF JESUS. Just like seeing One on the throne, when no man has ever seen God, which was reported by John, himself, in 1 John 4.

You actually believe Jesus was physically a lamb?