Brutish Pastors Scatter Sheep

[freeatlast]

Originally Posted by Edward Anglin

This thread has been good, but I will say many of you will never know the absolute hurt that can be caused by careless words spoken by parishioners.

I find it horribly sad that parsihioners can openly defy, castigate and tear down pastors without thinking twice, but if a pastor issues any type of correction he or she is considered "brutish."

The spirit of Jezebel openly defies, and seeks to destroy the man of God at every opportunity. I think this happens because some people transfer all of their hurts and anger toward God on the man of God.

I have seen my kids and wife absolutely crushed by the hateful words of careless, mean-spirited saints. This, after my kids and wife have went without to build a church those same folks can come to and criticize. But, on the other hand, I have seen other saints defend my family against idiots.

Most people are kind and respectful. It's just the folks that live to breed contention that can make life truly miserable for a pastor.

AFF is great about pointing our the imperfections of pastors, while demanding they be perfect in every way. Truth is, none of us are perfect, and pastors will make mistakes. Hopefully, those pastors will receive the same measure of mercy the saints have come to expect.

I think it's very sad when a church devolves into a war between pulpit and pew. Leaves me wondering why the doors even stay open.

God is not pleased.

Good post Ed.

[gloryseeker]

Originally Posted by Edward Anglin

This thread has been good, but I will say many of you will never know the absolute hurt that can be caused by careless words spoken by parishioners.

I find it horribly sad that parsihioners can openly defy, castigate and tear down pastors without thinking twice, but if a pastor issues any type of correction he or she is considered "brutish."

The spirit of Jezebel openly defies, and seeks to destroy the man of God at every opportunity. I think this happens because some people transfer all of their hurts and anger toward God on the man of God.

I have seen my kids and wife absolutely crushed by the hateful words of careless, mean-spirited saints. This, after my kids and wife have went without to build a church those same folks can come to and criticize. But, on the other hand, I have seen other saints defend my family against idiots.

Most people are kind and respectful. It's just the folks that live to breed contention that can make life truly miserable for a pastor.

AFF is great about pointing our the imperfections of pastors, while demanding they be perfect in every way. Truth is, none of us are perfect, and pastors will make mistakes. Hopefully, those pastors will receive the same measure of mercy the saints have come to expect.

I think it's very sad when a church devolves into a war between pulpit and pew. Leaves me wondering why the doors even stay open.

God is not pleased.

Good post! It reminds me of David at Ziklag. When the enemy attacked the people turned against their leader. It is human nature. What these men of David didn't get is that not only was David not the problem, but in reality he held the keys to the solution. Because he was willing to encourage himself in the Lord and seek out the Lord they recovered all plus the spoils.

[Withdrawn]

Originally Posted by gloryseeker

Good post! It reminds me of David at Ziklag. When the enemy attacked the people turned against their leader. It is human nature. What these men of David didn't get is that not only was David not the problem, but in reality he held the keys to the solution. Because he was willing to encourage himself in the Lord and seek out the Lord they recovered all plus the spoils.

Just curious, and referring back to D4T's point, where do we find any scriptural indication that the pastor is our leader?

I believe most of these problems we see in our churches (and yes... other denoms as well) that end up with a burned out, discouraged pastor or an abused and scattered flock, is due to the notion that the church organization is a one man show. You have to do an awful lot of "reading into..." to come to a conclusion from Scripture that that pastor is the "authority over you" or even the leader of any congregation. We talk a good talk about "five-fold ministry," but when it comes down to it we have a one-size fits all model of ministry. There may be associate or supportive assistant pastors, but it's still usually only one man calling the shots at the end of the day.

The comparison to David is important, in my opinion. Because we really do feel like the pastor is our leader. But the Bible says that JESUS is the head of His church. And He gave the church gifts of ministry at five different levels (areas of expertise, really). Centuries of tradition have picked away at the others and left us with one man standing at the center... like a king... our vicar. We even call him "the man of God."

The reason that pastors get frustrated, discouraged, burned out, overwhelmed (...etc.) is because they assume duties and responsiblities that were never intended for the man with a calling to be a pastor (shepherd, nurturer, protector, encourager). What I see in scripture is that any one congregation should have several who are called to be pastors - and it's a ministry, not an office. The problem with brutish pastors or abusive congregations, IMO, stems from the headship of the church pointing to a flawed man and not to Jesus where it should be.

Now... go ahead and let me have it. I know I got it coming.

[The Lemon]

This is a good thread with alot of good points. Sometimes, I think, problems arise out of expectation. Expectation from the sheep, and from the pastor. We tend to be very spoiled in America on many levels, and come to expect that life is all about "us". You know, "Us four, and no more"

To me there are two different types of expectation, expressed and implied. Sometimes expectations are not "expressed" clearly on both sides, then it leaves the door open for implication, which is basically a form of assumption.....and well, assuming to much leads to pie in the sky mentality. Some sheep expect the Pastor to be a mindreader, God, Superman - and thats not to mention the expectation they may have of his wife and children (that is another thread).

On the flip side, the pastor, if not careful, can have unrealistic expectations of the flock he oversees as well. I remember having a discussion with my pastor, where I had expressed what I had seen at another church that I assisted in. I told him that the leadership always filled the calendar with programs and things, and that many in the church would not voluntreer or show up. My solution.....If the church can't/won't support something......you just don't do that something. Just that simple.

Too many pastors are burdened down, not because there is no help, but because they try to do to much knowing there is no help, bur ASSUMING, people will come on board if its jotted down at a meeting. Too much of that, and he gets burned out, frustrated, and perhaps becomes part of the statistics on an earlier post.

My personal opinion is that there are alot of things that have been overlooked in terms of church structure, and how a church should operate. The pressures of finances are real, i have seen that destroy folks, but I wonder and also believe that it should not / does not, need to be this way. I don't want to derail this post, but the necessity of a building, all the platform equipment, and all the price tags that go with that are suspect to a degree to me. We have, in the USA, created a climate of expectation that "This is what a Church is/does" and we are, in large part, suffering for the expectation......no one said we could not change the expectation, but I wonder is many really want to??

[Digging4Truth]

Originally Posted by The Lemon

This is a good thread with alot of good points. Sometimes, I think, problems arise out of expectation. Expectation from the sheep, and from the pastor. We tend to be very spoiled in America on many levels, and come to expect that life is all about "us". You know, "Us four, and no more"

To me there are two different types of expectation, expressed and implied. Sometimes expectations are not "expressed" clearly on both sides, then it leaves the door open for implication, which is basically a form of assumption.....and well, assuming to much leads to pie in the sky mentality. Some sheep expect the Pastor to be a mindreader, God, Superman - and thats not to mention the expectation they may have of his wife and children (that is another thread).

On the flip side, the pastor, if not careful, can have unrealistic expectations of the flock he oversees as well. I remember having a discussion with my pastor, where I had expressed what I had seen at another church that I assisted in. I told him that the leadership always filled the calendar with programs and things, and that many in the church would not voluntreer or show up. My solution.....If the church can't/won't support something......you just don't do that something. Just that simple.

Too many pastors are burdened down, not because there is no help, but because they try to do to much knowing there is no help, bur ASSUMING, people will come on board if its jotted down at a meeting. Too much of that, and he gets burned out, frustrated, and perhaps becomes part of the statistics on an earlier post.

My personal opinion is that there are alot of things that have been overlooked in terms of church structure, and how a church should operate. The pressures of finances are real, i have seen that destroy folks, but I wonder and also believe that it should not / does not, need to be this way. I don't want to derail this post, but the necessity of a building, all the platform equipment, and all the price tags that go with that are suspect to a degree to me. We have, in the USA, created a climate of expectation that "This is what a Church is/does" and we are, in large part, suffering for the expectation......no one said we could not change the expectation, but I wonder is many really want to??

Indeed... Pastors get burned out etc because they are taking the entire load intended for the entire ministry to take on.

Not only should the load be broken up between Apostles, Prophetc, Evangelists, Pastors & Teachers but there should be multiple people in each ministry operating within the body.

The model exhausts pastors and frustrates others.

[edjen01]

Originally Posted by jaxfam6

"Train up a child..." that is biblical

I agree that not all persons are going to take everything taught to them but I think the reasoning stands pat for most. You want someone to learn something you teach them and train them.

since we are talking about spiritual and not natural...i do not think this verse applies here....take it in its proper context.

[Fiyahstarter]

Originally Posted by Digging4Truth

Indeed... Pastors get burned out etc because they are taking the entire load intended for the entire ministry to take on.

Not only should the load be broken up between Apostles, Prophetc, Evangelists, Pastors & Teachers but there should be multiple people in each ministry operating within the body.

The model exhausts pastors and frustrates others.

AMEN!

[edjen01]

Originally Posted by jaxfam6

Then as an educator you should also know that it works both ways. A child can not teach itself otherwise we would not need people like yourself. I would say there should not have to be a direct correlation between a teachers maturity and the maturity of the student but to many times I have seen it. This spiritual birthing is very much like natural. In the natural traits are passed on. Well in the spiritual traits get passed on also. Should my maturity level be based on what my pastor's maturity level is? No, but often times it is. Thankfully I have had mature teachers. Just like abuse. In a family where the father abuses his wife and kids, to often the kids abuse their wives and kids when they have them. Should they? No but as we all know to often they do.

not sure if you are a man or a woman....or if you have witnessed an actual birth...they NOT the same.

to say that there are spiritual genetics is crazy. where does this come from? are you getting this from Paul's statement to Timothy?...if so...then study that out a little more...Paul is not saying that spiritual traits are passed on like physical DNA.

i find your comparison to abusive parents to be disgusting. abuse is NOT passed on in your DNA. that fact that someone grows up in an abusive home does not make them become an abuser...no more than growing up in a church with a mature pastor makes a person a mature believer...going to a church where the pastor is dishonest does not make me cheat on my taxes.

we are responsilible for our own actions....for our own salvation....and for our own maturity. I do believe that if we surround ourselves with mature people they can help us....but ultimately it is up to us...no one else.

[Falla39]

Originally Posted by Falla39

Jeremiah 23 (King James Version)

1 Woe be unto the pastors that destroy and scatter the sheep of my pasture! saith the LORD.

2 Therefore thus saith the LORD God of Israel against the pastors that feed my people; Ye have scattered my flock, and driven them away, and have not visited them: behold, I will visit upon you the evil of your doings, saith the LORD.

3 And I will gather the remnant of my flock out of all countries whither I have driven them, and will bring them again to their folds; and they shall be fruitful and increase.

4 And I will set up shepherds over them which shall feed them: and they shall fear no more, nor be dismayed, neither shall they be lacking, saith the LORD.

It looks like the LORD GOD is taking it personally! MY people, my pasture,
my flock. We are His people, the sheep of HIS pasture.

Psalms100:3,
Know ye that the LORD he is God: it is he that hath made us, and not we ourselves; we are his people, and the sheep of his pasture.

[acjcpastor]

On the flip side, the pastor, if not careful, can have unrealistic expectations of the flock he oversees as well. I remember having a discussion with my pastor, where I had expressed what I had seen at another church that I assisted in. I told him that the leadership always filled the calendar with programs and things, and that many in the church would not voluntreer or show up. My solution.....If the church can't/won't support something......you just don't do that something. Just that simple.

AMEN and AMEN!

First allow me to qualify my statements by saying that I’ve been Spirit Filled for almost 40 years and in ministry for over 26 years. I’ve served the Lord under a variety of pastors with a wide variety of pastoring styles. No, I’m not a church hopper. I’ve just been faithful wherever the Lord placed me, even when the pastor turned out to be “brutish.” That man kept us hopping 24/7. We were never good enough and we couldn’t do anything that wasn’t church related without being blasted for sinning. He controlled who we could and could not fellowship. He instituted a 15% “tithe” to support all of the churches endeavors. I could go on and on. Suffice it to say that that period of my life almost destroyed my marriage and my walk with God. However, I gained a great deal of insight during those days that helps make me a better pastor today. I can also say that I understand how this good man fell into this trap. He wasn’t always that way. It happened over a span of time. I think it had a lot to do with kingdom building and that’s kingdom with a small k. First and foremost the man of God must always remember it’s His Kingdom they are working for, not their kingdom.

Whenever I get frustrated with people and pastoring, the Lord reminds me that it is not about me, it’s about Him. Sure, I get frustrated when people are not faithful to church or they seem to work against the church. But as their pastor, I first have to ask myself if I’ve given them reason to rebel. Are they rebelling against me or my leadership? Have I given them good reason to withdraw themselves from our fellowship? If I’ve driven them off, I have to be accountable to God for that. Even a pastor has to repent and I’ll be honest enough to say that I’ve had to work to correct situations that I created before. However, usually these people are not rebelling against their pastor. I need to realize this is a spiritual battle they are fighting and they will respond to encouragement, compassion and hope better than a harsh rebuke. How many people have been driven away by a mad preacher yelling rebukes and humiliating them from the pulpit? I never want to be one of hose type preachers. Rebuke and correction will cause either repentance or rebellion. I believe if one is lead by the Spirit, they will minister in the correct spirit and bring about repentance.

Like I said, I’ve served under a brutish pastor but I’ve also served under pastors who were more realistic. The “realist” pastor understands that people have limitations. People can’t work 2 jobs to make ends meet and attend 4 or 5 church functions a week. People need to grow and mature at their own pace. Handing them a list of do’s and don’ts and dressing them up in an apostolic uniform will not prepare them for the battles they face this side of glory. The realist knows you can’t drive sheep, you have to lead them. You have to be there for them and care for them continually. The flock needs to know the shepherd is there for the long haul. They need to know the pastor cares about them more than just a means to a paycheck from their tithes.

The statistic that 50% of pastors are so discouraged they would leave the ministry if they could, but have no other way to make a living is sad. Maybe this is best discussed in another forum but I see this as a big problem that needs to be addressed with our apostolic bible schools. I believe it is biblical to have job skills besides preaching and teaching, especially in the day and age we live in. However, our young men and women spend 4 or more years for a diploma with few (if any) college credits that are recognized by other institutions. They may know homiletics and theology but the only jobs available to them, outside the pulpit, pay minimum wage. It’s kind of hard to start a church and family on that kind of income.

While the previous pastor here was “full time,” he had the skills from his military days to work a secular job and I remember times in the churches history when he used those skills to survive. While I could be a full time pastor today, I choose to keep a secular job for several reason:
1st, I believe God gave me the skills and this job for a reason.
2nd, the church is able to give abundantly to missions because my physical needs are already being met.
3rd, it keeps me in tune with what the church members are going through, getting up and facing a harsh work environment and a wicked society on a daily bases.

I’ve had fellow ministers make snide comments about my being “bi-vocational” as if I was not trusting God enough to meet all of my needs. That is their problem. With fewer than 80 on a Sunday morning, we are not a large congregation. However, we’ve paid off our church mortgage, we are totally debt free and we are able to give thousands to missions each year. Like I said, I believe God provided my secular employment for a reason and I thank Him for all of the blessings it brings to the church and to my family.