Why Such A Fuss Over Standards!!

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by John Atkinson

There is a difference between having (and even preaching) standards of morality, character, behavior and modesty, and just plain legalistic bombardment.

I wanted to share a thought I had when I read the above Bro. Atkinson. My thought was along these lines...

Do preachers preach standards because it's easy to preach standards?

I mean, in the bully pulpit you're going to get raving Amens and shouting. I used to when I preached. If I wanted to rile the crowd up I knew all I had to do is go down a road and bash television or gay people for about five minutes. Standards and "hot button" topics were sure winners. I knew that the majority in the building were UPCI. This means that they better support the idea of no television... and if they had televisions (and some did and I know it) they shouted too because they didn't want to look like sinners. I knew that most likely there were very few homosexuals in the house, so I could bash away and get "Amen brother!"s until the cows came home. Standards were an easy thing to preach. Here's another good example, a good friend of mine preached from Matthew 7... here was his text....

Matthew 7:24-27
24Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
25And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
26And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
27And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

He read it with that slow and deliberate preacher's draw we all learned so well from the elder... and then he opened with this statement...

"I still believe that it's wrong to own a television. And I still believe it's wrong for a woman to wear pants!"

He preached about television for nearly a half hour.... and the house was filled with screaming and shouting with the preacher (he never went back and touched women's pants though). He said he wanted to set a standard and show us a rock we could build our houses upon. From a homiletic perspective, he did great. He had a great delivery, it kept our attention, and it was well structured... even better, people came to the altar. I don't doubt that his motives were sincere.

But... there is a BIG problem with the sermon. Notice the text... Jesus said,

Matthew 7:24
24Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

Our preacher friend never told the congregation that this was the closing of a three chapter sermon delivered by Jesus known as the Sermon on the Mount. He never touched on a single thing Jesus had just preached about. When Jesus says, "whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them" he's talking about what he'd been teaching in the previous three chapters. Notice the subjects Jesus addresses...

The Beatitudes

being poor in spirit,
those who mourn,
the meek,
those who hunger and thirst for righteousness,
the merciful,
the pure in heart,
the peacemakers,
those who are persecuted because of righteousness,
when people insult you and persecute you

Being Salt and Light
The Fulfillment of the Law
Murder & Slander
Adultery
Divorce
Oaths
An Eye for an Eye
Love for Enemies
Giving to the Needy
Prayer
Fasting
Treasures in Heaven
Do Not Worry
Judging Others
Ask, Seek, Knock
The Narrow and Wide Gates
A Tree and Its Fruit

Our brother (one who is now in the WWPF) was railing about television and how the church (he meant UPCI) is compromising for nearly a half hour... and never once touched single thing Christ said. The people walked away knowing the organization's position on television... but they didn't walk away knowing what Christ taught. Again, Jesus said,

Matthew 7:24
24Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

You can't build your house on a rock by doing the things Jesus taught us to do unless someone teaches the things Jesus actually taught. Instead... the preacher opted to bash television. It was an easy sermon. I assure you... if he would have gone into the Sermon on the Mount (honestly it deserves a series not one sermon) it would have been dead. By the time he got to what Jesus taught about lust and loving your enemies people would be trickling out to the bathrooms and texting in the lobby.

So I wonder...

Do so many preach traditional standards because standards are easier to preach than the actual Word of God???

Just a thought. Love you guys.

[Hoovie]

Good thought Aquila. Quoting scripture out of context to support whatever would be easy - not to mention deceptive.

How often have you heard "I thank God I speak in tongues more than ye all" to support the exact opposite of what Paul was saying about using the gift in public settings?

[Falla39]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Falla, I guess I just believe that the Bible alone is sufficient. If there isn't a short sleeve standard, a facial hair standard, a dress color standard, an open toe standard, a split standard, etc. in the Bible.... I'm not impressed with it because it's just a fleshly religious set of rules instituted by man. It's carnal and worldly. It's no more impressive to me than seeing the very conservative Muslims from the Middle East. It's all just flesh.

Bro. Aquila,

Some of your statements in your last two posts concern me. You say you
believe that the Bible alone is sufficient. The Word of God is very important
but without the SPIRIT to lead and guide, we're sadly lacking.

I don't know a lot about you but guess you to be a fairly young man, maybe
a couple or so children, perhaps pre-teen ages. Just guessing!

And although I was born just prior to WWII, my parents were the children of
those who came out of the Great Depression, and we were the children whose
parents went through the second world war. Yes, we were the children who
didn't question everything and everybody. Tom Brokaw wrote his book, "The
Greatest Generation", the one my parents were from. And they call us, their
children, "The Silent Generation". We were the children who were told to list-
en and learn. And listen and learn we did. We were fed the Word of God un-
til we could feed ourselves. The Word of God IS quick and powerful and
sharper than any two-edged sword even to the dividing of soul and spirit.

But, Bro. Aquila, I wasn't just a part of that or those generations, I've been
here ever since and am still very much alive! in Christ, that is!

I could go through all the various arguments, etc.,etc as to why this and
why that. But I would invite you to come back here when you are almost
70 yrs. (I will be in Sept 09) and after you have been married 50 yrs. (will
be July 11,09) and after you have raised your children and they have been
married for years and have children and are raising your grandchildren.

Brother, all I can say is you had better have the Spirit of Truth, the HOLY
GHOST, to lead you and guide you. Without the Spirit of Christ leading, we
would be hopeless. The Bible is the Guidebook. The Spirit is The GUIDE!

I mean no offense, Bro. Aquila! I just know that until we have been some-
where, we will not be a reliable source to tell someone else how to get
there. ALL I know is somehow by HIS GREAT mercy and grace we've come
this far by faith.

We've come this far by faith,
Leaning on the LORD.
Trusting completely in His Word,
He's never failed us yet.....

We've come this far by faith

Blessings abundantly,

Falla39

[Falla39]

One little note:

Yes, the Bible tells us how to get there, but then, there's the
"gittin" there! The Spirit gets you there. But you have
to be willing to follow. Jesus said His sheep hear His Voice and
they follow HIM.

Falla39

[Falla39]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Falla, I guess I just believe that the Bible alone is sufficient. If there isn't a short sleeve standard, a facial hair standard, a dress color standard, an open toe standard, a split standard, etc. in the Bible.... I'm not impressed with it because it's just a fleshly religious set of rules instituted by man. It's carnal and worldly. It's no more impressive to me than seeing the very conservative Muslims from the Middle East. It's all just flesh.

Bro. Aquila,

Have you seen me mention clothes standards one time! A light (lamp)
doesn't sit on the desk, etc and shout, "Look at me! I'm a light". See me
shine! It just shines, by the power within. It shines the brightest in the
darkness.

Falla39

[Baron1710]

My radio isn't working in my pickup, just the cd player works, my son left a CD in there yesterday and it was playing a song when I got in this morning that I thought fit this discussion well. It is called, What This World Needs, by Casting Crowns.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A5WCRDxYMhs

[ILG]

Originally Posted by Falla39

Before the evening was over, he let me know that the pastor where he had received the
Holy Ghost, had instructed him to TELL me that he, as the man, had decided. The pastor was
the one who had decided. HE had also set an appointment with my fiance' for the pastor to
pre-marital counsel us. I did go with him for the appointment, but I had such a heaviness
about it, that I was so distressed by the time I got home that when Dad asked me why we
were so late, I told Dad I was so tired I didn't want to talk about it. Dad knew I was distres-
sed and pressed me about the meeting.

The pastor also wanted the rings my fiance' had bought me. Using some OT scriptures to get
his point across. My fiance' also told me he had already felt led of the Spirit and had told his
mother he believed God wanted us to go to my father's newly founded church.

That has been 50 yrs as this happened a while before we married July 11, 1959.

O, how I thank God for the wisdom and instuction of a godly father and mother. The
prayers of my late grandmother, my late father and mother, was enough to put the
enemy to fllight. These were the ones watching for our souls.

In my spirit I knew something was wrong but didn't know what. I prayed and
desired God to show me HIS WILL. I desired to do His WIll. At 19 yrs old I was
learning a respectful, revential fear of the LORD. I still do fear the LORD in a
healthy way. But I first learned to respect and reference my earthly father.

I just felt to tell this portion of my life as I could have fell into a trap and
been in some of the places some of you have been entrapped. BUT for the
grace and mercy of ALMIGHTY GOD, I could have a different story. But be-
cause of listening to someone who had been further down the road and was
older and wiser than myself, God saved us from a lot of sorrow.

Through the years there were times I did not always understand why my father did
or said some things, BUT I did learn that IF I would trust and obey, later on I could
see the wisdom in it. I knew Dad trusted and obeyed his FATHER. Jesus
only DID and SAID what HIS FATHER told him to do and say.

This is not a preacher or pastor bashing post. It is about the fact that man
is still flesh and bones. He is human.

Falla39

Falla,

With all due respect, allow me to bare my soul here. You tell a story of something that happened to you....things that were wrong. And of a father and godly people who helped you out. So, this worked out for you. Imagine for a moment that you DIDN'T have this earthly father and that you DIDN'T have people supporting you. You speak of a distress, an exhaustion and a not knowing what was wrong. This was very short-lived because of people who helped you. Falla, you need to understand that there are people who are not helped as you were and this distress and exhaustion and the not knowing what is wrong lasts for literally years and years.

At the risk of being misunderstood, your problem that you were rescued from by your parents and people who cared does not give you license to tell people who suffered for years and did not have anyone to help them how great these standards are because they worked for you. You have to understand that other people have other experiences and that your story is very minor and yet you remember it because of the searing pain you felt. I don't think you know much about pain or searching, at least in this fashion. Instead of teaching, I think it's time to listen. Sorry if this sounds harsh to you. It's nothing compared to what many have experienced.

[Falla39]

Originally Posted by ILG

Falla,

With all due respect, allow me to bare my soul here. You tell a story of something that happened to you....things that were wrong. And of a father and godly people who helped you out. So, this worked out for you. Imagine for a moment that you DIDN'T have this earthly father and that you DIDN'T have people supporting you. You speak of a distress, an exhaustion and a not knowing what was wrong. This was very short-lived because of people who helped you. Falla, you need to understand that there are people who are not helped as you were and this distress and exhaustion and the not knowing what is wrong lasts for literally years and years.

At the risk of being misunderstood, your problem that you were rescued from by your parents and people who cared does not give you license to tell people who suffered for years and did not have anyone to help them how great these standards are because they worked for you. You have to understand that other people have other experiences and that your story is very minor and yet you remember it because of the searing pain you felt. I don't think you know much about pain or searching, at least in this fashion. Instead of teaching, I think it's time to listen. Sorry if this sounds harsh to you. It's nothing compared to what many have experienced.

Dear ILG,

You don't have a clue as to how much pain I have suffered through the
50 yrs. since that story I posted last. That was before and just after we
married. And the point was I LISTENED to my elders. It saved me pain I
didn't have to bear. But to say you don't think I know much about pain is
totally UNTRUE!. . Maybe it is because I don't tell every gory detail about
my life. Or maybe because I gave God my pain instead of allowing it to
spring up a root of bitterness. I count my BLESSINGS, and sometimes I
count them one by one.

What standards are you speaking about? I have never tried to impose
standards on anyone.

Sister, I listened and I COULD teach or at least tell others and perhaps
help spare them some pain from the things I have learned. Many will never
listen to anyone!

I feel a spirit of "resistance" many times to my posts from some on this
forum. Also a spirit of "opposition". Resisting and opposing spirits are strong
spirits. Just what is it you feel toward my words?

As to me knowing about pain OR searching, you don't know the half of it.
Instead of becoming BITTER I chose to become BETTER because of the pain
and suffering that came my way.


Quoted by ILG:
I don't think you know much about pain or searching, at least in this fashion. Instead of teaching, I think it's time to listen. Sorry if this sounds harsh to you. It's nothing compared to what many have experienced.

[ILG]

You don't have a clue as to how much pain I have suffered through the
50 yrs. since that story I posted last. That was before and just after we
married. And the point was I LISTENED to my elders. It saved me pain I
didn't have to bear. But to say you don't think I know much about pain is
totally UNTRUE!. . Maybe it is because I don't tell every gory detail about
my life. Or maybe because I gave God my pain instead of allowing it to
spring up a root of bitterness. I count my BLESSINGS, and sometimes I
count them one by one.

It is true, I don't have a clue. And you don't have a clue what pain people have experienced BECAUSE they listened to their elders. THAT is the pain I am speaking about that you are pretty unexperienced with. There are different types of pain and betrayal by your elders is some of the worst kind. You haven't experienced much of that and that is pretty evident.

What standards are you speaking about? I have never tried to impose
standards on anyone.

You are the one that started the thread with the word "standards' in the line. You have talked about life standards, principles, and people getting bitter over sleeve lengths and sports. So, I suspect you mean all of these.

I feel a spirit of "resistance" many times to my posts from some on this
forum. Also a spirit of "opposition". Resisting and opposing spirits are strong
spirits. Just what is it you feel toward my words?

I feel anger towards your words. The reason for this is, you have admitted repeatedly that you have had great support in your life and then find fault with those who didn't as if it was all their fault because they didn't "listen" to their elders. This amounts to nothing but a false accusation towards many who DID listen to their elders and it got them pain, suffering and misery. I am happy for your experience, but I would appreciate it if you did not invalidate the experiences of others simply because you had a good one.

As to me knowing about pain OR searching, you don't know the half of it.
Instead of becoming BITTER I chose to become BETTER because of the pain
and suffering that came my way.

Fine. Is this an accusation that those who haven't come to your conclusions are bitter?

Read my bolded words from below:

Quoted by ILG:
I don't think you know much about pain or searching, at least in this fashion. Instead of teaching, I think it's time to listen. Sorry if this sounds harsh to you. It's nothing compared to what many have experienced. [/B]

[/QUOTE]

In this fashion. What fashion is that? In the fashion of elders who betrayed you. You are inexperienced in that. You have been supported. Good for you. I am happy for you. You talk about one experience of betrayal. Perhaps you have had others as well. Not everyone has been so blessed to be supported.

This is not a WHINE about my hurts but about YOU starting a thread that says basically that if you had just respected and listened to your elders, you would think like Falla39 and you would not be bitter because Falla39 is not and you would be happy like Falla39 is.

Don't come on here and start threads like this and not expect to be challenged. I say these things respectfully, whether you think I do or not.

[Falla39]

Quote by Falla39:
"Fuss" in the title of my thread was in regard to all the recent threads that
were started on the subject of "standards".

ILG quote:
With all due respect, Sis. Falla, more standards does not equal better. Emma Bontrager just about got on here to tell you why your standards are low and dismal.

ILG quote:
Don't come on here and start threads like this and not expect to be challenged. I say these things respectfully, whether you think I do or not.

ILG,
Your "elders" (Whoever you are speaking of) and my "elders" may be two different
things. Who are our elders?