A Crumbling UPC 'Fesses Up, AI is not working

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by Aquila

I think it will sting him too.

However, I don't think a one size fits all. Many couples that live together have been together for many years. Some are divorcees that have children. To advocate that they dissolve their relationship immediately would be problematic and traumatic for all involved. I'd advocate just preaching the Word. God's GRACE is sufficient to keep them saved. Eventually the Word will do the work and convict them to marry.

I don't believe God demands perfection. I do believe that grace is provided for the sinner. It's the imputation of Christ's righteousness to the sinful and undeserving. Their salvation isn't based on performance...but position... and if saved... their position is "in Christ".

Should they serve in some form of ministry? I wouldn't recomend it until they were married.

Well said, preach grace and the completed work of the cross and let the Holy Spirit do the converting. NO WAIT, the HS may not deal with all the appearance issues!!!

But the HS will deal with each individual where God is at work in their lives if the church can just do its part, love them and be Jesus in their world. HE dealt with the things of the heart, not one lesson of hair, dress, or jewelry.

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by Chateau d'If

Pastors, forced to teach AI, driving away UPC new converts by the hundreds and thousands, now being told they could have delayed teaching it, or ignored it altogether.

Face it, this thing is generational change, time changes most things. None of us have God completely figured out.

However, the body must have a structure, or skeleton, otherwise the body will collapse. But our doctrines must be scriptural, and not weaken with opinion and personal preference. Your preference is the next person's dislike.

[Cindy]

Originally Posted by Chateau d'If

I recently watched a webcast, called "HM Live," over on the upci.org wesbsite. The webcast consisted of Carlton Coon, who is the UPCI general Home Missions Director, interviewing David Bernard, the General Superintendent of the UPCI.

As I watched, and listened, my jaw hit the floor. It is very evident that the UPCI knows that the Apostolic Identity campaign has been a complete failure.


Coon: You know I was talking to…Brother Hanscom and I…who is our Director of Multicultural Ministries, were talking yesterday about one of our Korean pastors who is a wonderful man…but his observation was that every time he begins teaching lifestyle change to his new converts, they’re gone. Well, my response to Brother Hanscom was that it’s taking a long time… to bring people to where they’re good stewards of life, and where they’re and where…they’re living things we feel to be important to Apostolic Identity. And some of it, I think, is our expectations of there being a quick fix….but conversion doesn’t give people all of the principles of life that they need.

Bernard: Right.

And that forces us…the solution is to be very biblical…

Coon: Right:

Bernard: As a home missionary I had to be very biblical. I’m asking major life changes. I’m asking for a new convert that’s in a live-in relationship to move out of that relationship. That’s a huge thing. And in our culture, the question is “why? Why should I have to do that?”

So, therefore, since I know I am going to be making lots of demands, in a sense, through preaching, and teaching, and love, and counsel…I don’t want to add anything that’s really more cultural than biblical. I have enough on my hands that’s biblical without having to put my cultural, or even personal, expectations. So, a lot of things I delay. A lot of things I don’t even deal with. And, I think your appeal…when it goes more to the Bible…that’s your best chance of that convert changing their way of life.

Coon: I know when I taught our new converts class that was our basis of operation. And when we got beyond scripture…to things that maybe would be my preference…people would begin to ask, “well, now, everything else has been Bible-based…why is this suddenly important and it’s not Bible-based?”

So the UPCI actually published this on their website, and it's available for the general public?

[*AQuietPlace*]

Did he just admit that the 'Apostolic Identity' stuff was merely preference, and not biblical???

[ILG]

I also think a lot of women who have been in the church a long time do it out of tradition and habit and would feel out of their element if they changed. That may have to do with personal conviction but it may not have much to do with it either.

[Caesar]

It sounds to me like these men are coming to terms with reality. I wouldn't call it hypocrisy. . . growth, maybe? I know some of you want to think the worst about the leadership of the UPCI.

As a member of the UPC, I appreciate the distinction between biblical and preference. We may not agree on what category each rule falls into, however.

This is progress!

[*AQuietPlace*]

The admission that they just made - that most of the 'Apostolic Identity' issues are just preference - is HUGE. Huge, huge, huge. Because there are a lot of people like me out there, people who never "liked" the 'Apostolic Identity' stuff, but were convinced to follow it because we thought we'd go to hell if we didn't!!

When word starts spreading that even the leaders know this stuff isn't biblically required..... wow! Then the people like me are going to ask - THEN WHY AM I DOING IT??

I realized on my own that this stuff wasn't biblical, but a lot of people are afraid to question. But when they hear that even the leaders acknowledge it? What's going to keep them 'in line' then?

[DAII]

Originally Posted by Caesar

It sounds to me like these men are coming to terms with reality. I wouldn't call it hypocrisy. . . growth, maybe? I know some of you want to think the worst about the leadership of the UPCI.

As a member of the UPC, I appreciate the distinction between biblical and preference. We may not agree on what category each rule falls into, however.

This is progress!

Just another UPCI preacher who signs the affirmation statement untruthfully.

[CC1]

Gotta love the hyperbole in the title of this thread. I found the transcript interesting but not quite as much as the thread title would suggest.

Perspective is everything in what they discussed. To them many things 99.9% of Christians consider extra biblical they consider biblical (like uncut hair on women, prohibtions on jewelry, makeup, pants on women, etc). That leaves not a whole lot they consider "extra biblical".

[Hoovie]

I read it again and I am not getting from it what some of you are. I am reading that there are some very important issues that need to be delt with among new converts (like fornication).

Then there are other, less serious issues that new converts grow into along the lines of "Apostolic Identity".

Thirdly, there are things without Biblical precedent at all that we have based solely on preference or tradition that can simply remain unaddressed, given there is plenty regarding Christian lifestyle in Scripture and there is no need to place a heavier burden than necessary on the people.

This is pretty much the way it's always been. Outside the fornication reference there were no definitions given regarding standards etc. I do know DKB has voiced opinion in favor of allowing facial hair on men, so I guess that may be in the "preference" category.