Book Discussion: Pagan Christianity

[Amanah]

thank you for your input Aquila, awesome posts imo

[Pilgrum]

So what did you think of chapter four, "the sacred cow: The Sermon?"

[Amanah]

Originally Posted by Pilgrum

So what did you think of chapter four, "the sacred cow: The Sermon?"

you noticed that I skipped that one . . .

"The sermon was conceived in the womb of Greek rhetoric. It was born into the Christian community when pagans-turned-Christians began to bring their oratorical sytles of speaking into the church." (Viola 101)

Viola feels that preaching is to be done in the marketplace, but dialogue should be part of church meetings.

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I've personally heard some great annointed, life changing preaching. I've seen preaching followed by an unbelievable Spirit of conviction where there was no altar call but a wave of the Holy Ghost moved thru the congregation and people ran, not walked to the altar and were filled with the Holy Ghost.

I've seen a church so on fire for God that the prayer rooms were packed to the brim with people praying and fasting and seeking the face of God.

I've walked from the prayer room with tears streaming down my face and the annointing on the church so heavy that everyone knew that God was in that place.

I've felt confimation in my soul that the man of God had a message and was speaking what God had given him.

Just thinking about it is stirring my soul to want to seek the face of God

Hosea 10:12 Sow to yourselves in righteousness, reap in mercy; break up your fallow ground: for it is time to seek the LORD, till he come and rain righteousness upon you.

Jeremiah 9:1 Oh that my head were waters, and mine eyes a fountain of tears, that I might weep day and night for the slain of the daughter of my people!

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Amanah

you noticed that I skipped that one . . .

"The sermon was conceived in the womb of Greek rhetoric. It was born into the Christian community when pagans-turned-Christians began to bring their oratorical sytles of speaking into the church." (Viola 101)

Viola feels that preaching is to be done in the marketplace, but dialogue should be part of church meetings.

-----------------------

I've personally heard some great annointed, life changing preaching. I've seen preaching followed by an unbelievable Spirit of conviction where there was no altar call but a wave of the Holy Ghost moved thru the congregation and people ran, not walked to the altar and were filled with the Holy Ghost.

I've seen a church so on fire for God that the prayer rooms were packed to the brim with people praying and fasting and seeking the face of God.

I've walked from the prayer room with tears streaming down my face and the annointing on the church so heavy that everyone knew that God was in that place.

I've felt confimation in my soul that the man of God had a message and was speaking what God had given him.

Just thinking about it is stirring my soul to want to seek the face of God

Hosea 10:12 Sow to yourselves in righteousness, reap in mercy; break up your fallow ground: for it is time to seek the LORD, till he come and rain righteousness upon you.

Jeremiah 9:1 Oh that my head were waters, and mine eyes a fountain of tears, that I might weep day and night for the slain of the daughter of my people!

God often moves in spite of our errors and misunderstandings. God often moves in any setting when faith arises among His people. God once moved in a powerful way with Bro. Jeff Arnold's preaching, and Bro. Arnold was preaching from the label on a pill bottle.

Biblically, did those services serve the entire purpose of our meetings in accordance to I Corinthians 14? It could be said that, as wonderful as they were, they didn't.

[Amanah]

Originally Posted by Aquila

God often moves in spite of our errors and misunderstandings. God often moves in any setting when faith arises among His people. God once moved in a powerful way with Bro. Jeff Arnold's preaching, and Bro. Arnold was preaching from the label on a pill bottle.

Biblically, did those services serve the entire purpose of our meetings in accordance to I Corinthians 14? It could be said that, as wonderful as they were, they didn't.

I think if people were being convicted of sin and filled with the Spirit that there could not be any greater purpose then that.
There is nothing greater then God filling people with the Holy Ghost.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Amanah

I think if people were being convicted of sin and filled with the Spirit that there could not be any greater purpose then that.
There is nothing greater then God filling people with the Holy Ghost.

It seems like everyone forgets that in I Corinthians 14:26-40 Paul states that when we gather everyone has something to contribute. Everyone should be able to prophesy for mutual edification. This rules out the one man show preaching event. Paul goes on to say that if anyone thinks they are spiritual they must acknowledge that these things are a commandment from the Lord. It's not the will of God for one man to prophesy throughout the entire gathering. It's out of divine order.

Gathering is for mutual edification, not merely evangelism. If an unbeliever attends (most were won before attending a gathering, they become convicted as they realize God is at work in all of us (I Corinthians 14:24-25).

[Amanah]

Originally Posted by Aquila

It seems like everyone forgets that in I Corinthians 14:26-40 Paul states that when we gather everyone has something to contribute. Everyone should be able to prophesy for mutual edification. This rules out the one man show preaching event. Paul goes on to say that if anyone thinks they are spiritual they must acknowledge that these things are a commandment from the Lord. It's not the will of God for one man to prophesy throughout the entire gathering. It's out of divine order.

Gathering is for mutual edification, not merely evangelism. If an unbeliever attends (most were won before attending a gathering, they become convicted as they realize God is at work in all of us (I Corinthians 14:24-25).

ok, most churches now have weekly services and also home meetings. The home meetings are for the mutual edification of the Church. The Sunday morning service would typically be the time you would invite people to be filled with the HG and baptized in the Name.

I don't see why you can't have both aspects.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Amanah

ok, most churches now have weekly services and also home meetings. The home meetings are for the mutual edification of the Church. The Sunday morning service would typically be the time you would invite people to be filled with the HG and baptized in the Name.

I don't see why you can't have both aspects.

That's my point, we can have both. My church is a network of house churches. On Sunday mornings at 11:30 AM we have a "gathering" at our sanctuary. During the week we attend our house churches. Now... please note... we believe that if one isn't a member of a house church they are not plugged into the body. We don't favor the idea of only coming to the Sunday gathering. The Christian life is about Christian fellowship, edification, and community. That can't be fully experienced on a pew.

But more importantly... the Bible commands that we have the smaller gatherings where all can prophesy. The Bible doesn't command that we have the massive larger gatherings. Here's an introductory video from my church that explains the house church side of our fellowship:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLSkWrypu3Y

Here's a video that shows what our sanctuary looks like:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=shiqg...eature=related

(Please forgive the silliness... our Senior Pastor likes to have fun. lol)

[Amanah]

thank you Aquila, I can't look at those at work, will have to wait till I get home

[Amanah]

Viola, Frank
Pagan Christianity? : exploring the roots of our church practices /Frank Viola and George Barna. Tyndale, 2002, 2008

Summary of Chapter 11

Viola contends that we cherry pick verses of scripture to support the view of the church we attend versus reading the Bible for what it says.
He suggests that reading the epistles in their chronological order also makes a difference in our understanding. (Viola 228)
The proper chronological order would be:
Galatians
1 Thessalonians
2 Thessalonians
1 Corinthians
2 Corinthians
Romans
Colossians
Philemon
Ephesians
Philippians
1 Timothy
Titus
2 Timothy

Viola thinks that the epistles were written to specific churches to address specific problems those churches were having and when we read them it is as if we are listening to one side of a phone conversation, we have to attempt to understand the culture of the recipient church and the possible problems the epistle was intended to address.