Westboro Baptist Church Similarities

[Steve Epley]

Originally Posted by Chateau d'If

Ask Steve Epley if he believes holiness is part of the gospel. Ask any Oneness standards-keeping conservative if holiness is part of the gospel.

They will say yes. They will say that "without holiness no man will see God." They will say that you can't be saved without holiness, and that holiness includes no makeup or jewelry.

They believe wearing those things will send you to Hell.

Holiness standards is NOT part of the gospel. The gospel is the death-burial-resurrection-return of Christ and our identification with that gospel by obeying Acts 2:38. However after one has obeyed the gospel and become a member of the Lord's church there are Biblical edicts and commands that will make us to be pleasing in His sight and the disobedience of them will cause us to be lost.

[Steve Epley]

Originally Posted by Narrow Is The Way

And while you're at it.

Ask Bro. Epley if he believes in Faith.
Ask Bro. Epley if he believes in Love.
Ask Bro. Epley if he believes in Deliverance.
Ask Bro. Epley if he believes in Miracles.
Ask Bro. Epley if he believes in One God.
Ask Bro. Epley if he believes in Mercy.
Ask Bro. Epley if he believes in Baptism in Jesus Name.
Ask Bro. Epley if he believes in Restoration.
Ask Bro. Epley if he believes in Prayer.
Ask Bro. Epley if he preaches against lying.
Ask Bro. Epley if he preaches against stealing.
Ask Bro. Epley if he preaches against having a bad attitude.
Ask Bro. Epley if he preaches against cheating.

I am sure he would answer yes to all the above.

Quit acting like the Holiness preachers are just one-trick ponies.

Just because you found a few idiots along the way does not mean that Holiness preachers don't have a right to preach Holiness with Love and Conviction.

It takes the whole package to be saved.
You will not be saved without inward and outward holiness.

Just because somebody has more lines than you do, does not make them a pharisee.

Thank you.

[MissBrattified]

Originally Posted by Chateau d'If

I've heard, with my own ears, and in person, an Apostolic preacher state that God hates fags. And he did so because he knew there was a visitor in the church that was struggling with homosexuality.

That's terrible. I've heard a few things like that, unfortunately.

My former pastor was convinced that the world was going to end at Y2K. He was making all sorts of preparations and insisting that everyone in the church do the same. Jeff was working as an engineer and dealt with computers all the time and wasn't worried about it at all. One night our pastor was screaming about the end of the world from the pulpit, and he turned in our direction and yelled something about "when your children are starving to death, don't you come knocking on MY door." It was both laughable and sad. The arrogance (and selfishness?) baffles me completely.

Fortunately, we were back home in Missouri by the time 2000 rolled around and didn't have to witness his back pedaling.

We also had a new couple come to our church (the former one) and the woman had scarring on her face from a car accident. She wore makeup to cover up the scarring. Sure enough, just a few weeks after they were baptized and received the Holy Ghost, came the screaming, hateful diatribe about Jezebels and painting your face. They never came back.

Again, though, most of this is a delivery problem rather than a content problem. The pastor could have privately sat the couple down and said, "This is what we believe about makeup; I'm sorry about your wreck, but I'm convinced that makeup is always something we choose because of vanity; please read these scriptures and we can discuss any questions you have." Instead he attacked and embarrassed a new convert.

Sister, I agree that the WBC is the worst of the worst. My point, however, is that I have seen, and do see, the same spirit attached to many conservative Apostolics.

I'm not in total disagreement in regard to having an arrogant attitude and a lack of real compassion for people who are lost. I've seen that time and time again. Closer to home than I'd like, too. IMO, ignorance is the chief cause. Laziness and superiority complexes can also be factors. When preachers don't want to get their hands dirty messing with people's dysfunctional lives and building relationships with the saints, they are less likely to treat them with respect. Further, church is supposed to be like family; not a Lord of the Manor and his serfs. The latter scenario aptly describes the dynamic of authority in churches where WBC behavior is likely to take place. This dynamic makes it much easier for a pastor to mistreat people because he distances himself from them and he devalues them by viewing them as inferior in intelligence, position, contribution, ability, spirituality, etc.

Of course, no doubt he runs his home in the same way, so insisting that the church should be more like "family" probably doesn't even help pastors like that.

My contention would only be that truly malicious types who are fraught with meanness and WBC hatred are not the majority, thanks be to God. They seem to be more common in certain corners of the Apostolic world, but I've encountered Lords over God's Heritage in liberal churches as well. It really comes down to the character of the man; not his doctrine. WBC types aren't that way because they have strong views; they gravitate towards polarizing views because of their personality and love for aggression and malice. I've seen many a man teach his heart felt beliefs in love and kindness. Sure, not everyone found it agreeable, but they usually still loved the preacher when the sermon was over. And they couldn't legitimately complain that he didn't love them.

[MissBrattified]

Originally Posted by Bishop Cleatus

Same here. I'm sure the sermon is excellent, but his "message" that I have seen on this forum over the years - or maybe the delivery of the message - is a problem for me.

It's important to remember that we might talk a little "rougher" to one another than we would to a sinner. I've grown up around Apostolic doctrine and I'm not intimidated by the sparring. No need to be sensitive about it. I've sat around tables where preachers debated doctrine and called each other names (thinking of terms like "liberal"--not bad names) and then had a meal together when they were done arguing. That kind of conversation is normal to some extent and it doesn't always bleed over into the pulpit.

For that matter, I have a couple of girlfriends who I discuss just about anything with. That doesn't mean I'm going to talk about any old topic with the woman standing in line next to me at the grocery store or even the music department on Sunday morning.

I think this forum is here somewhat for the purpose of compartmentalizing conversations we can't have elsewhere. It would be short sighted to assume that everything people say in a forum to fellow Apostolics they would say in public at any time to any audience. I don't allow my children on forums like this for a reason. It isn't appropriate for them on many levels. That doesn't mean I'm wrong for posting here and then not having the exact same conversations with my kids.

[Bishop Cleatus]

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

Holiness standards is NOT part of the gospel. The gospel is the death-burial-resurrection-return of Christ and our identification with that gospel by obeying Acts 2:38. However after one has obeyed the gospel and become a member of the Lord's church there are Biblical edicts and commands that will make us to be pleasing in His sight and the disobedience of them will cause us to be lost.

So much truth. If only all of edicts you preach as Bible were, in fact, Biblical, I think we'd all be on the same page.

Yet, the pattern of mixing personal preference, tradition, a dash of nostalgia and some Biblical truth continues to separate us.

[Chateau d'If]

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

Holiness standards is NOT part of the gospel. The gospel is the death-burial-resurrection-return of Christ and our identification with that gospel by obeying Acts 2:38. However after one has obeyed the gospel and become a member of the Lord's church there are Biblical edicts and commands that will make us to be pleasing in His sight and the disobedience of them will cause us to be lost.

And there you have it.

Repent.
Be baptized.
Speak in tongues,
And follow all of the standards.

The ultracon way of salvation.

[Chateau d'If]

Here's a nice reference.

http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news...95/detail.html

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by Chateau d'If

And there you have it.

Repent.
Be baptized.
Speak in tongues,
And follow all of the standards.

The ultracon way of salvation.

Is it once saved always saved? Do you think there are some things that we must do to remain saved? Like, for instance, love one another, or be led of the Holy Spirit, or crucify the flesh, or take up our cross, or forgive others, do the first works, maintain a first-love relationship with the Lord, follow Jesus, etc...aren't these things we must do to stay in a right relationship with God?

Would you call those things...standards?

[Jay]

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

Holiness standards is NOT part of the gospel. The gospel is the death-burial-resurrection-return of Christ and our identification with that gospel by obeying Acts 2:38. However after one has obeyed the gospel and become a member of the Lord's church there are Biblical edicts and commands that will make us to be pleasing in His sight and the disobedience of them will cause us to be lost.

Thank you, Bro. Epley. I would never have been able to say it so clearly or in such an abbreviated fashion. I entirely agree, and that was the way I was raised as well. The preachers I listened to growing up were strong, but I generally felt that it was for our good. I fell in love with the standards because of their preaching.






Miss Bratfield, I could tell stories like that myself. I grew up a PK, and often saw men who might not agree on anything but that they had nothing in common, sit at the same table and converse, or they would be at a function and give lauditory comments about one another even when they were in complete opposition to one another. Growing up it could be a bit confusing, but now that I am in the work place, I do the same thing from time to time. I believe it is called getting along peaceably.

[Nitehawk013]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

Is it once saved always saved? Do you think there are some things that we must do to remain saved? Like, for instance, love one another, or be led of the Holy Spirit, or crucify the flesh, or take up our cross, or forgive others, do the first works, maintain a first-love relationship with the Lord, follow Jesus, etc...aren't these things we must do to stay in a right relationship with God?

Would you call those things...standards?

Great question! Looking forward to the answer. I expect it to be that "those things are biblical, but standards of holiness are not".

Maybe I will be surprised though.