BOTT 2013 Quote

[Michael Phelps]

Originally Posted by Peacemaker

It's more than bash the UPC. It's bash anyone who believes in Baptism in Jesus' name and receiving the Holy Ghost evidenced by speaking in tongues.

I haven't read all the posts in this thread, but if you're referring to DB's latest post, you're way off the mark......it's a bash against salvation by works.

[navygoat1998]

Originally Posted by Peacemaker

It's more than bash the UPC. It's bash anyone who believes in Baptism in Jesus' name and receiving the Holy Ghost evidenced by speaking in tongues.

I tell you it is just pure blasphemy!!!!!!

[scotty]

Originally Posted by Michael Phelps

I haven't read all the posts in this thread, but if you're referring to DB's latest post, you're way off the mark......it's a bash against salvation by works.

lol,

As if there is a difference to ya'll?

Look, fact is this.

You can look up all the Bott, camp meeting, general conference , and the like threads on this forum.

All of them have one or more "DB post" in them.

Just the way it is.

Its just funny everyone clammors around the post like its some new revelation.

Sorry, its been done before.

Its done every year.

Same battime, same batchannel.

[Michael Phelps]

Originally Posted by scotty

lol,

As if there is a difference to ya'll?

Look, fact is this.

You can look up all the Bott, camp meeting, general conference , and the like threads on this forum.

All of them have one or more "DB post" in them.

Just the way it is.

Its just funny everyone clammors around the post like its some new revelation.

Sorry, its been done before.

Its done every year.

Same battime, same batchannel.

There is a huge difference. I don't care what the denominational tag is, any group that teaches that you have to pray more, fast more, DO more to be saved is a group that teaches salvation by works.

What DB says resonates with me, because I was in that same boat - I loved going to BOTT for the music, preaching, the energy, the fellowship......but came back feeling "less than" and kind of settled into a let down state.....maybe everyone doesn't do that, but I did.....felt like I wasn't "doing enough".

So, I agree with his post......if you want to misconstrue that as bashing the UPC, then sobeit.....not much I can say to change your mind.

Just remember - everyone who left the UPC is not bitter, and everyone who tells of their past experiences is not "bashing".

[Cindy]

[rgcraig]

Originally Posted by Michael Phelps

There is a huge difference. I don't care what the denominational tag is, any group that teaches that you have to pray more, fast more, DO more to be saved is a group that teaches salvation by works.

What DB says resonates with me, because I was in that same boat - I loved going to BOTT for the music, preaching, the energy, the fellowship......but came back feeling "less than" and kind of settled into a let down state.....maybe everyone doesn't do that, but I did.....felt like I wasn't "doing enough".

So, I agree with his post......if you want to misconstrue that as bashing the UPC, then sobeit.....not much I can say to change your mind.

Just remember - everyone who left the UPC is not bitter, and everyone who tells of their past experiences is not "bashing".

I second that!

[scotty]

Originally Posted by Michael Phelps

There is a huge difference. I don't care what the denominational tag is, any group that teaches that you have to pray more, fast more, DO more to be saved is a group that teaches salvation by works.

What DB says resonates with me, because I was in that same boat - I loved going to BOTT for the music, preaching, the energy, the fellowship......but came back feeling "less than" and kind of settled into a let down state.....maybe everyone doesn't do that, but I did.....felt like I wasn't "doing enough".

So, I agree with his post......if you want to misconstrue that as bashing the UPC, then sobeit.....not much I can say to change your mind.

Just remember - everyone who left the UPC is not bitter, and everyone who tells of their past experiences is not "bashing".

Sure they are, but that is an 'agree to disagree' with us.

So my question here is, are we ever 'doing enough'?

Have you ever reached a point in your life where you sit back in your recliner and say to yourself, "ok, Im at a point where I do enough for God, I have no need to do more, no need to go further" .

[Peacemaker]

Originally Posted by Michael Phelps

I haven't read all the posts in this thread, but if you're referring to DB's latest post, you're way off the mark......it's a bash against salvation by works.

You need to read them all. Apparently the UPC is following the Anti-Christ, or is the Anti-Christ, or something.

[Peacemaker]

I haven't heard a preacher in the UPC say that you have to fast to be saved. Paul DID recommend that we pray without ceasing. He also recommended that we work out our own salvation with fear and trembling.

[deacon blues]

Originally Posted by Peacemaker

I can think of things far more accurate to Anti-Christ descriptions than that. Like, for example, someone who claims to be the Messiah. That is the Scriptural description.

I John 4:3
And every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard was coming, and is now already in the world.

The spirit of Antichrist is already in the world. If one claims Jesus as Messiah but doesn't produce the fruit that they truly and fully trust Him for their salvation and that they are trusting in themselves for all or even a percentage of their salvation, they are saying in essence "I am Savior" or "I am Savior too". If your theology says that Jesus did a great thing on the cross so that you can do all these things to earn salvation that message is anti-Christ. It's another gospel, it's another Jesus.

I'm sorry but de-emphasizing Paul's statements about New Birth doctrine found throughout his epistles and relegating the doctrine to repentance = salvation ignores Acts 2, 9, 10, and 19, Romans 6 & 8, Luke 24:27, John 3:1-8, Matthew 28:19-20, John 20:22, and so on.

I would say text proofing is a faulty way to build doctrine. One must look at ALL of Acts, ALL of the Gospels, ALL of the Epistles.

If you take a careful look at Acts there are nineteen recorded conversions to Christianity. In five of those accounts you have the Acts 2:38 pattern represented as is espoused by OP. In 100% of those accounts you have repentance/faith/belief represented. Now should one build their doctrine of salvation on 20% of the accounts recorded in Acts or on 100%?

The message of salvation by grace through faith is from Genesis 1 through Revelation 22. It's the one consistent and constant message throughout history: God loves mankind unconditionally and will save those who will believe Him. The writer of Hebrews 11 makes it crystal clear that from Adam until today that all of God's people have had one guiding principle: FAITH. Without faith it is impossible to please God. And those that come to God must believe that He exists and that He rewards those that diligently seek Him.

OP theology will fit the Scriptures you mentioned above but OP theology can't fit into hundreds of other passages that say NOTHING about water baptism or speaking in tongues or braided hair or cut hair or costly array or all of the other "add ons" that OP theology requires for salvation but that simply teach that faith is all that's required to be born again to become a child of God. The OVERWHELMING Scriptural evidence is that we are justified by faith.

Nicodemus was clearly living a life of repentance, but God sent Peter to preach Jesus. When Peter preached, God poured out His spirit.

I think you mean Cornelius in Acts 10. And Cornelius had not heard the Gospel. So like the Jews who prayed to Jehovah, not knowing that Christ was Messiah and been made both Lord and Christ, Peter was sent to preach JESUS, not baptism, not tongues, not standards, not anything other than JESUS.

We have Paul preaching Christ to the Philippian jailor in Acts 16 and he tells him to "believe in the Lord" and he would be saved. He went home, his household converted and they were baptized. No mention of tongues or the gift of the HG. The Ethiopian eunuch in Acts 8 is shown through the Scriptures that the prophet Isaiah was speaking concerning Jesus. In verse 35 it says that Philip preached JESUS unto him. He declares that he believes that Jesus is the Son of God and gets baptized. If he was still yet unborn of the Spirit, why would Philip leave him there unsaved, bound for hell, and not get in his face and tell him to let it go and just speak it and get the HG speaking in tongues?


The 3 step pattern is inconsistent. The simple message of faith fits every passage.

The disciples of John the Baptist clearly believed and were therefore living in repentance. Paul, discovering they had probably not heard of Jesus' finished work, didn't reteach repentance, but instead preached baptism in Jesus' name and receiving the Holy Ghost. So maybe Paul is part of the Anti-Christ movement as well? Hmm. I don't think so.

The disciples of John were not believers of Jesus Christ. Acts 19:4 makes it clear they weren't. John preached repentance stating that one would come after Him who be the Lamb of God. He preached for a while before Jesus emerged. It's possible these men heard John and repented and were baptized by him and since they were from Ephesus they went back home never seeing Jesus or hearing about him. So once again you have people who haven't heard the Gospel of Jesus. Once they heard, they believed, they were rebaptized and they received the Holy Spirit.

The pattern is not duplicated in every instance, but it is consistent with the fact that Jesus Christ is the message that's preached and believing/faith/repentance in some form of the word is evident in EVERY instance.

If you had a disease that was found to occur in 20% of the cases in people who went to Wal Mart on Main Street but was evident in 100% of the cases where people went to McDonalds on Maple Avenue, with some of those people of those people going to Wal Mart later (the 20%) the logical conclusion would be that the disease is originating at McDonalds, not Wal Mart.

100% of the recorded conversions of Acts include belief/faith/repentance. 20% include some form of the OP interpretation of Acts 2:38. And even then you have some inconsistencies (Acts 8 not mentioning tongues, Acts 10 out of sequence---they spoke with tongues but hadn't been water baptized---were they saved when they spoke with tongues or when they were baptized?---Acts 2 records 3,000 were added to the church believing and being baptized, but no mention of tongues for the 3,000). I have to be honest and admit what I was taught as a rock-solid, open and shut case for the 3 steps is really full of holes. Salvation by grace through faith---it's all over the place.

DB how do you teach about the gifts in your church? are tongues welcomed or not? In any form?

I've got a lunch appointment. I'll answer this later.