You are my brethren

[RandyWayne]

Originally Posted by Titus2woman

There was a time when Christians in our part of the world believed that people of color were actually animals and not human... and it wasn't all that long ago. I think you expect much when you ask for transformation in the church from that to understanding biochemical changes on the human brain in just a few short generations. They are just slow to catch up... patience.

And don't get me started on the whole "the sun revolves around the Earth!" thing. . . . .

[Michael The Disciple]

I feel the Church is far ahead of the world when it comes to understanding. Just think the scientists of this world don't believe the very basic fact of everything.

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made . John 1:1-3

There is a being who existed before anything else. He himself made everything.

How long will it be before they catch up with us?

[Titus2woman]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

I feel the Church is far ahead of the world when it comes to understanding. Just think the scientists of this world don't believe the very basic fact of everything.

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made . John 1:1-3

There is a being who existed before anything else. He himself made everything.

How long will it be before they catch up with us?

Lots of scientists believe exactly this.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Titus2woman

It's a plausible hypothesis and obviously very well thought out. It leaves those who struggle with same sex attraction their humanity and dignify at least and is in that respect much kinder and more Christ-like than what most of the 'Christian' community spouts about them being cursed by God and unchangeable. I find that you have a sharp intellect and a good heart and have taken the time to act in love. I find no fault in what you have written here and we agree on much. I won't go back over a lot of what you have written but will add a few things since I am not sure it answers all my questions... not that it should....


I know from my experience working for eight years in an Endocrinology clinic that treated, among other things, people who were born neither male nor female, as we understand them, that 'born that way' is a very complicated issue. Through problems in development in utero, there is much we do not understand about being fearfully and wonderfully but possibly imperfectly made. Many of our patients had ambiguous genitalia that might or might not be able to be surgically made to match their karyotype to their phenotype. And even all genetic answers are not XY or XX... There are XXYs, XYYs, Turners, Klinefelters, clitoral hytrophy and mico-penis cases. Then there are those who do not want surgery but would choose to live as they are. This taught me that things are not always black or white. I believe that our brains likewise do not always develop in exactly the same way either and can be influenced by hormones and chemicals during development and same sex attraction can be the result... so yes technically born that way.

I believe that God can heal, I also believe that sometimes He just doesn't. I think the church often sees a person who is not healed from anything, not just same sex attraction, as somehow having failed God and not being deserving of a healing. I've heard people say terrible things questioning what someone possibly did to 'cause' them to get cancer. I think that people who judge others in their walk with God certainly are not pleasing God by doing so and I wish they would stop.

My life experiences have also taken me to a few different places than most and I've had a lot of up close and personal experiences with another kind of homosexuality. I'll share some of that here as well. I've already revealed that I grew up in and out of foster care and girls homes. In girls homes and all-girls schools (and even a lot mixed gender colleges) lesbianism is rampant. In some of the girls homes I was in 50% or more of girls would have identified themselves as lesbian and up to 80-90% as bisexual or jokingly 'try-sexual' meaning they would try anything at least once. It was the '70 before AIDS and in Cali. the home of free love. But even at a prestigious women's university where one of my doctors attended college (who is now lesbian) she tells me they had a lot of LAGs or Lesbian Until Graduation girls... since girls were available for sex... so these young women were 'situaltionally gay', if you will, and were later easily able to 'switch' to normal hetro relationships, marry and have families. So I absolutely believe there can be and is a social component to homosexuality, it's not all biochemistry.


I also knew two girls from my youth that having identified themselves as lesbian upon returning to their families were not accepted. One attempted to 'live straight' and later committed suicide leaving behind two small children and a note behind to say that she was a fraud. The other moved across the country (CA to NY) and never saw her family again, giving up parents, siblings and extended family. So From this I surmise that there are at least those who believe that they CAN NOT change. Of course there are those who kill themselves because they believe they CAN NOT get off drugs or alcohol or stop desiring someone they can't have or 100 other reasons too so for me that is not 'proof' that they couldn't change. I think socially influenced homosexuality is hugely feared by the church and is the primary reason they are so hateful about it.

So in conclusion I believe it is a muti-factoral issue and we only have a few pieces of the puzzle. Is sin a factor? well... the bible says so but I think the church places more emphasis there and ignores the rest as if it does not exist... Can all homosexuals become heterosexuals? I don't think so, but maybe. Can some, yes definitely. Can they abstain if their religious beliefs do not allow them to practice homosexuality? Yes they can. Should we be the ones deciding who the one are that can or will change... ummm, no that is up to God.

Until all the facts are in will I error on the side of loving kindness? I certainly hope so.

Excellent post. Great points.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by n david

To say someone was born that way suggests God erred or made a mistake in His creation.

What about those born with other hormonal and biochemical imbalances??? Imperfections, God's mistakes, God's will??? Or... the effect of the "sin principle" at work in our fallen and corrupted flesh (read: biology)??? Many of these biochemical imbalances lead to anger, cursing, fits of rage, violence, and lack of self control. All these things are "sin".

Most Christians will say it is the effect of sin on the biological aspect of our nature. Yet we are not willing to see any connection with biochemistry and homosexuality. I find that strange.

[bbyrd009]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

I feel the Church is far ahead of the world when it comes to understanding. Just think the scientists of this world don't believe the very basic fact of everything.

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made . John 1:1-3

There is a being who existed before anything else. He himself made everything.

How long will it be before they catch up with us?

I'd say that you might be mistaken here, and comparing apples to oranges...a scientist necessarily begins with cause and effect, and generally does not attempt to deny the supernatural, but considers it to be beyond his pale.

I know many scientists who would agree with you; but even some of them might be interested in working out the specific mechanism for a phenomenon. For better or worse, it has gotten us to where we are. I personally don't find them at odds, and shining a light where there was previously only ignorance cannot be an all bad thing, imo.

I note that in virtually every societal decay, it is the intelligentsia who are first sacrificed? I find many, if not most, scientists engaged in the business of revealing aspects of God to us.

Guess it's all a matter of ones pov; I recently heard a discourse upon the scientific method as being the means whereby satan discovers that which God already knows, but he does not, lol. I think I agree.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

I feel the Church is far ahead of the world when it comes to understanding. Just think the scientists of this world don't believe the very basic fact of everything.

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made . John 1:1-3

There is a being who existed before anything else. He himself made everything.

How long will it be before they catch up with us?

Hmmm... ever take medication for a malady? Thank biochemists for doing the research and making the breakthroughs. Some of them there biochemists may have been atheists or even... gay. lol

Point is... another failure of categorical logic. Spirituality and science intersect but the Bible and science don't. We should interpret science through the ethic of Scripture. Not close our eyes too it and scream that it can't be right. LOL

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by bbyrd009

I'd say that you might be mistaken here, and comparing apples to oranges...

True. But Michael has a solid track record of failing to think categorically. And it strongly enfluences his doctrinal positions. We were discussing soul sleep in a thread wherein I bore this out.

[Titus2woman]

Originally Posted by n david

To say someone was born that way suggests God erred or made a mistake in His creation.

Maybe... lt was actually my husband who coined the phrase 'fearfully and wonderfully but imperfectly made' when we found out after a heart cath that I have no left main coronary artery. I was born that way. For me it is a great thing. That artery is called the widow maker because when it becomes blocked you almost always die. My chance of a fatal heart attack was cut down to a tiny percentage of others with that diagnosis.

I know some people with ambigious genitalia that feel the same way. They are happy for who they are even though they are not 'normal'. I am sure there are gays who feel the same way, and I've met people with varying degrees of mental illness who are more sensitive,compassionate, or expressive than those without. Who knows why all of us have some imperfections... I like to think that they are part of our journey, not just huge mistakes. Overcoming issues requires growth.

[bbyrd009]

Originally Posted by Titus2woman

Maybe... lt was actually my husband who coined the phrase 'fearfully and wonderfully but imperfectly made'... Who knows why all of us have some imperfections... I like to think that they are part of our journey, not just huge mistakes. Overcoming issues requires growth.

Amen. It might be relevant to note that, in all our 'perfectionism,' God categorically ignores our...'choices,' and chooses instead to use the 'imperfect' to accomplish His will here.