Newborns & Children go to hell?! What does the Bib

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by MarcBee

Embrace? No. I am claiming that eternal hellfire is consistent with Jesus' teaching. I presume you are not claiming a distinction between "torture in hellfire" and "eternal damnation." Pretty sure orthodoxy regards them the same, or at least biblical literalist/fundamentalism does.

Damnation--the prescribed punishment for having inherited the Sin Nature from Adam--is very Pauline. Mankind's position of enmity with God (until born again) is taught in NT with no regard to age accountability--Adam was the problem. But okay, let's exclude babies for sake of argument--

Even if one does not accept this interpretation of the irrelevance for any "age of accountability", I'm implying there is little essential difference between eternal hellfire for a 12 year old having committed his/her first "accountable" sin and eternal hell for an "innocent" baby. To punish a finite sin with an infinitely painful and infinitely long torture is a psychopathic deranged thing to do, in any circumstance. (Which revulsion of course fits your UR doctrine, I see. But UR requires so much spin. An omnipotent, omniscient god could have easily avoided being tagged as the creator of an eternal hellfire where most of humanity goes, considering the bible is supposed to be god's primary interface for communication with mankind.)
Instead,

Matthew 10:28
28 And fear not them that kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul; but rather fear Him that is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

The question is: "How can the traditional definition of hellfire be true, considering the power, and the nature of the Father?" I have no problem with questioning the traditional interpretations and translations.

[MarcBee]

Originally Posted by crakjak

The question is: "How can the traditional definition of hellfire be true, considering the power, and the nature of the Father?" I have no problem with questioning the traditional interpretations and translations.

So, let's reinterpret, retranslate, or re-whatever it takes to have a more palatable god (or maybe one more like the nicer side of Jesus, yet who said he was One with Yahweh.) If that's necessary to do, doesn't that mean such a god was either uncaring about how he is represented in the existing scriptures, or maybe is lacking in omnipotence and omniscience? Whichever the scenario, what basis would remain to believe anything as written or delivered?

[soopy]

Originally Posted by MarcBee

So, let's reinterpret, retranslate, or re-whatever it takes to have a more palatable god (or maybe one more like the nicer side of Jesus, yet who said he was One with Yahweh.) If that's necessary to do, doesn't that mean such a god was either uncaring about how he is represented in the existing scriptures, or maybe is lacking in omnipotence and omniscience? Whichever the scenario, what basis would remain to believe anything as written or delivered?

well, the truth that remains in what is written, if not delivered--which is most probably that Scripture is fine, it is just the common understanding of it that is generally deficient? One need go no further for there explanation of 'eternal damnation' than 1 Sam 28:19 "Moreover the LORD will also give over Israel along with you into the hands of the Philistines, therefore tomorrow you and your sons will be with me..." when Samuel is obviously not in damnation?

[Precis]

Well none of the scripture give by l. L. Yates states that the child was saved.
Only that the child could not come back to david.
David would die in time to come and be in judgement as the child.
This would mean that mr. Yates is willing to allow sinners in to the kingdom of heaven, just to ease his and the other persons mind.
If this be the case then all are going the g. L. B. T. Have it made.
One question that all refuse to ask or state or answer.
We are all born in sin and shapened in iniquity !!!
Right??
Then how in the world can a child be saved or as many of you state go to heaven when they are automatically sinful and each day are shapened more and more in sin.
Does not scripture state as long as the parents or parent lives according to the will of yahushua our father the children or child is clean.
Would some one tell me why only eight (8 ) souls were saved and not the babies.
Not one child was saved on the ark.
Not one child was born for several years after the flood.
Now you believe what you will it will not change the word of yahushua.

[soopy]

"Then how in the world can a child be saved or as many of you state go to heaven when they are automatically sinful and each day are shapened more and more in sin.
Does not scripture state as long as the parents or parent lives according to the will of yahushua our father the children or child is clean.
Would some one tell me why only eight (8 ) souls were saved and not the babies.
Not one child was saved on the ark."

These comprise several different concepts in a Christian belief system, and might largely be understood to be from a discord of concepts, or the application of one misunderstood concept to other concepts. As humans, we can only admit to a dim view, and "seeing as in a mirror, darkly," when mirrors were pretty dark.

Experience will tell one that children of devout people may not have devout kids; and there were "children" saved on the Ark-Noah's adult children. What babies were not saved? They were most likely doomed, anyway, Pharoah's children--but to consider them condemned from a salvational pov is not only ignoring obvious, Scriptural reference to an age at which one becomes accountable, but ignoring that physical death is not a barrier for God, who can do what He will with souls, and is not bound by our deficient understanding of Him.

This is essentially a fear, a symptom of following a doctrine of original sin; a boogeyman. No amount of bad exegesis should lead one to any conclusion that any children are currently suffering in hell, this is unsupported in Scripture.

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by soopy

well, the truth that remains in what is written, if not delivered--which is most probably that Scripture is fine, it is just the common understanding of it that is generally deficient? One need go no further for there explanation of 'eternal damnation' than 1 Sam 28:19 "Moreover the LORD will also give over Israel along with you into the hands of the Philistines, therefore tomorrow you and your sons will be with me..." when Samuel is obviously not in damnation?

Very good logic!!!

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by NewbieMisfits

Soooo.....

Can someone help me out on some scripture here....

1. I was told by an Apo that; if a child, that is not of the age of accountability dies, and their parents were not saved/born-again that this child goes to hell!?!?!

2. Now if the same whom said this doesn't believe in abortion, as they believe life starts at conception, then by their definition they would have to believe an aborted fetus from sinful parents would also go to hell. <<I'm asking this at breakfast this morning<<


If ANYONE could share some scripture on #1 I would be most thankful!

I don't believe that new borns go to Hell.

[soopy]

i mean please

[OnTheFritz]

Newborns cry so much because they are guilty sinners.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Precis

One question that all refuse to ask or state or answer.
We are all born in sin and shapened in iniquity !!!
Right??

I've answered this before. The verse you refer to does not state all mankind is born with a 'sin nature' such that they are automatically damned to hell from the moment they are conceived. Once you jettison that left-over gnostic-catholic garbage the whole question becomes moot.

Here's what the verse in question says :

Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me. (Psalm 51:5).

A few points:

1. This is said by David, of himself. Not of all mankind.

2. A literal interpretation would be that his mother was committing sin in conceiving him.

3. God forms us in the womb. Does God form people 'in iniquity'? That is, does God form people to be sinners? It makes no sense, and contradicts the whole of Scripture, to suggest that God made each of us sinners, then damns us to hell for what HE HIMSELF did. We cannot be guilty for what God does to us, that's a contradiction in terms.