Truth and Deception

[n david]

Originally Posted by votivesoul

I haven't brought myself or where I am at into this post because it's immaterial to the conversation.

What is relevant was that the original post had, in first person, the Lord Jesus speaking certain things that don't agree with His already stated work in the Scriptures. That is where I draw the line.

Jesus plainly and without hesitation explained exactly what the parable of the wheat and the tares meant. He didn't leave it open for discussion.

Tares are children of the devil, sown into the world by the enemy in order to cause confusion and ruination of the harvest. That is a truth proposition given by the Lord. He didn't say they were anything else. We can wonder and guess at and reinterpret to our hearts desire, but it doesn't change what the Lord said.

And so, when anyone comes and say that the Lord, in first person has suddenly redefined His own parable and the meaning of it into something else, any student of Scripture has an obligation to the Lord they serve to question that. Jesus said His words will never pass away.

We can't just go around re-interpreting His words as we see fit, then claim He was the One doing the re-interpreting. All that does is create doubt and uncertainty that the will and mind of Christ is actually knowable.

We can question our previously held ideas, assumptions, and understandings, and in time, come to different conclusions. This is well and good. But we can't come to new conclusions because we have changed the very meaning and intent of the Scriptures to suit our previously held ideas, assumptions, and understandings. That is dangerous territory. That is adding to or taking away from the Word.

We ought not to go there but at our spiritual peril. Had the original post presented the concepts given as thoughts and questions regarding the parable of the wheat and the tares, then okay, fine.

But that is not how it was presented. It was presented as though the Lord was speaking in first person a new and different interpretation of His own parable, in contrast to how He already defined it in the Word. That is a BIG deal. I hope we can see that.

Because if what was written in the first post is not accurate, then it becomes a false witness against the Lord of lords, because it presumes to tell the world that He said something He didn't actually say.

We must not "go there", as the saying goes.

[shazeep]

You must be true to yourself. I will say that if you really seek God, He will not let you fall. Go there, and see! You will have to put your beliefs through a fire anyway...

and ps, that 'saying' is no where in Scripture that i can find--i see "Ask, seek, knock." Go there.

[KeptByTheWord]

Originally Posted by n david

Interesting how you ignore the part in bold, and try to change the meaning of the text because it says "gather out of his kingdom." It does not mean God allows wheat and tares together in one person. It most clearly says that the tares are the children of the wicked one and the good seed (wheat) are the children of God. Surely you're not suggesting that God is wicked? Because that's exactly what you'd have to believe if you say wheat and tares are together in the life of a believer.

Hi nDavid... I think you react to controversy like a magnet does to steel, lol. Hadn't seen you post here until things got heated up a bit, lol.

Let me ask you a question. Do you believe your heart and soul is completely void and free of all evil?

[n david]

Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord

Hi nDavid... I think you react to controversy like a magnet does to steel, lol. Hadn't seen you post here until things got heated up a bit, lol.

Really? Must not have read my first post (#18) below. Actually it was a lovefest when I posted, with exception of two posts, one from MtD and one from Houston post. I even thanked you for sharing your thoughts, and agreed with a couple things you said.

My first post HERE

Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord

Let me ask you a question. Do you believe your heart and soul is completely void and free of all evil?

No, but that's not what the parable is about. The parable is clear that the wheat are the children of God and the tares are the children of the wicked. One cannot read this and believe that wheat AND tares are in a child of God.

If you read my first post, you'd see where I did agree that deception does try to mix in with truth. I also believe, as you posted, there is evil and good, tares and wheat, positives and negatives, truth and deception in this world; however, I do not believe they are together in the life of a believer. As I stated then, the Bible says it's either righteousness OR unrighteousness, light OR darkness, Christ OR belial. Never do these mix together.

Let me ask you a question: do you believe God is wicked?

[KeptByTheWord]

Originally Posted by n david

Really? Must not have read my first post (#18) below. Actually it was a lovefest when I posted, with exception of two posts, one from MtD and one from Houston post. I even thanked you for sharing your thoughts, and agreed with a couple things you said.

My first post HERE

Sorry 'bout that! I appreciate your thoughts as always, and I was just teasing with you anyway

Originally Posted by n david

No, but that's not what the parable is about. The parable is clear that the wheat are the children of God and the tares are the children of the wicked. One cannot read this and believe that wheat AND tares are in a child of God.

If you read my first post, you'd see where I did agree that deception does try to mix in with truth. I also believe, as you posted, there is evil and good, tares and wheat, positives and negatives, truth and deception in this world; however, I do not believe they are together in the life of a believer. As I stated then, the Bible says it's either righteousness OR unrighteousness, light OR darkness, Christ OR belial. Never do these mix together.

Let me ask you a question: do you believe God is wicked?

I'll let the Lord answer for himself:

Isaiah 45:5-7
5 I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:
6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.
7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

[shazeep]

know that satan is head of your religion, by default, as men have convened, and written down immutable doctrine for it--with the best of intentions, most likely. It's just the way it is.

[n david]

Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord

Sorry 'bout that! I appreciate your thoughts as always, and I was just teasing with you anyway

I'll let the Lord answer for himself:

Isaiah 45:5-7
5 I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:
6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.
7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

I love this scripture. But this doesn't mean God is wicked, not by any means! The word for "evil" here is adversity or calamity. It's righteous judgement, not evil, such as sin is.

I made a cake once, yet doing so didn't make me a baker. God created adversity and calamity, but He is not wicked.

[shazeep]

ok wait--weren't you the guy just agreeing that one should not go there?

[KeptByTheWord]

Originally Posted by n david

I love this scripture. But this doesn't mean God is wicked, not by any means! The word for "evil" here is adversity or calamity. It's righteous judgement, not evil, such as sin is.

I made a cake once....didn't make me a baker. God created adversity and calamity, but He is not wicked.

Yes, I love this scripture too, because it shows the diversity and creativity of our God. The wisdom that He had in the beginning to create both good and evil, in order to bring about a greater good. We can't even begin to fathom all who He the Creator is, but we can be sure that He has a plan.

Another question I've always pondered in my heart is this. We always say or have read "God is love". God loves all humanity. Indeed He does.

But, he also has the capacity to hate too.

Read this:

Mal. 1:1-3
1 The burden of the word of the LORD to Israel by Malachi.
2 I have loved you, saith the LORD. Yet ye say, Wherein hast thou loved us? Was not Esau Jacob's brother? saith the LORD: yet I loved Jacob,
3 And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness.

And then again:

Romans 9:13-16
13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

How can a GOD who loves so much, hate one, even though he sought forgiveness carefully with tears? Heb. 12:17

I can't really answer that question, because I'm not God. But I do know that God, in His infinite wisdom, has a plan, and a purpose in all that He does. Paul recognized this too, because he didn't give an answer as to why God hated Esau and why Pharaoh was raised up to serve an evil purpose for the Israelites, but went on to write these beautiful words:

Romans 9:
8 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

My point being this... who am I, to question the Lord of Glory as to why He can love one, and hate another, why he can raise up a man to be used in wickedness against His own people in order to bring forth a greater good... I don't have the answers to these questions, nor will I find them.

Can the potter say to the clay, why has thou made me thus? Paul didn't have the answer either, but settled on the fact that whatever God's plan and purposes are, they are greater in design than we can fathom.

[votivesoul]

Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord

Votivesoul:

Here is the parable of the tares and the wheat:

Matt. 13:24-30
24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

... and then Jesus explaining the parable:

36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.
37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

I would like you to notice and comment on the bolded part "and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity."

This is a two-part equation here... 1) all things that offend, and 2) them which do iniquity.

Now do you see how this parable could go a little deeper than just a first passing glance?

Only if taken out of context. All things that offend, if taken out of context, COULD mean anything you want it to. But since Jesus said that the things that offend are the tares, who are people, the only context allowed to be considered is the idea that people, who are children of the devil, are the "things that offend" and they will be removed.

Consider Revelation 21:27, in which we are told that no "thing" that defiles will enter into New Jerusalem, but then the verse makes it clear that the only thing that will enter are people, therefore indicating that the things which would defile the Holy City are people.