Wayne Grudem-Trinitarian Madness

[Bowas]

Originally Posted by Luke

Isa 9 is probably the only passage that has ever made me wonder but in light of other passages I can't throw the doctrine of the trinity out.

I admire your honesty.

[Michael The Disciple]

I thought I was a Trinity believer until I heard the Trinity defined. 3 co equal, co eternal persons, each one being God in his own right.

Then I knew for sure I did not believe in it. At that point I wasnt sure what TO believe but everything in me rejected such a doctrine.

[Luke]

I hold strongly to Athanaisn creed definition of the trinity:

one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity;

4. Neither confounding the persons nor dividing the substance.

5. For there is one person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Spirit.

6. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit is all one, the glory equal, the majesty coeternal.

7. Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Spirit.

8. The Father uncreated, the Son uncreated, and the Holy Spirit uncreated.

9. The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible, and the Holy Spirit incomprehensible.

10. The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Spirit eternal.

11. And yet they are not three eternals but one eternal.

[Luke]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

I thought I was a Trinity believer until I heard the Trinity defined. 3 co equal, co eternal persons, each one being God in his own right.

Then I knew for sure I did not believe in it. At that point I wasnt sure what TO believe but everything in me rejected such a doctrine.

How would you as a oneness believer deal with this verse?

And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Ghost it shall not be forgiven. — Luke 12:10 (KJV)

If oneness doctrine is correct why does it make a difference if you blasphemy Jesus or the Holy Ghost since they are both one and the same? Would not a person blaspheming Jesus also be blaspheming the Holy Ghost at the same time?

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by Luke

How would you as a oneness believer deal with this verse?

And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Ghost it shall not be forgiven. — Luke 12:10 (KJV)

If oneness doctrine is correct why does it make a difference if you blasphemy Jesus or the Holy Ghost since they are both one and the same? Would not a person blaspheming Jesus also be blaspheming the Holy Ghost at the same time?

It is easy to deal with Luke.

Here is what Yeshua referred to:

Levi 24:10-16

10And the son of an Israelitish woman, whose father was an Egyptian, went out among the children of Israel: and this son of the Israelitish woman and a man of Israel strove together in the camp; 11And the Israelitish woman's son blasphemed the name of the LORD, and cursed. And they brought him unto Moses: (and his mother's name was Shelomith, the daughter of Dibri, of the tribe of Dan. 12And they put him in ward, that the mind of the LORD might be shewed them.

13And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, 14Bring forth him that hath cursed without the camp; and let all that heard him lay their hands upon his head, and let all the congregation stone him. 15And thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel, saying, Whosoever curseth his God shall bear his sin. 16And he that blasphemeth the name of the LORD, he shall surely be put to death, and all the congregation shall certainly stone him: as well the stranger, as he that is born in the land, when he blasphemeth the name of the LORD, shall be put to death.

The Holy Spirit is the Father of Yeshua. His name is YHWH. Saul cursed Yeshua and blasphemed his name because he thought he was a mere man, an imposter. But in doing so his intention was not to blaspheme YHWH. He thought he was serving YHWH.

To speak evil of Yeshua as a man is forgivable. To speak evil of YHWH (the Holy Spirit) is not.

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by Luke

I hold strongly to Athanaisn creed definition of the trinity:

one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity;

4. Neither confounding the persons nor dividing the substance.

5. For there is one person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Spirit.

6. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit is all one, the glory equal, the majesty coeternal.

7. Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Spirit.

8. The Father uncreated, the Son uncreated, and the Holy Spirit uncreated.

9. The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible, and the Holy Spirit incomprehensible.

10. The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Spirit eternal.

11. And yet they are not three eternals but one eternal.

I hold firmly to this creed.

6For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Isaiah 9:6

Yeshua is:

a. Wonderful Counselor
b. Mighty God
c. Eternal Father
d. Prince Of Peace

If he is not he does not meet the qualifications to be the Messiah.

The spirit of anti christ will deny this.

9Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

How does believing the doctrine of Christ give us both the Father and the Son?

Read Isaiah 9:6 SLOWLY...........

Does it say Messiah is a SON? Does it say the Son shall be called EVERLASTING FATHER?

WHY YES IT DOES! If you accept Yeshua as THE MESSIAH of Isaiah's prophecy you are accepting him AS BOTH.

If he is not the EVERLASTING FATHER he does not fulfill the prophecy!

Now do YOU believe Yeshua is the Son and the Father?

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by houston

Trinitarianism makes THE distinction between Father, Son, and Holy Sp... Holy Ghost.

So does Oneness. The issue is about what that distinction is.

http://www.onenesspentecostal.com/ugstsymposium.htm

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by houston

LET US...

He wasn't speaking to Angels.

Who was speaking? The bible says God

"Let us" is a third person plural pronoun..WHO was God speaking to? God was speaking to someone other than Himself

That's the grammar. Even Trinitarian scholars admit that (scholars not Apologists)

Net Bible Notes

47 sn The plural form of the verb has been the subject of much discussion through the years, and not surprisingly several suggestions have been put forward. Many Christian theologians interpret it as an early hint of plurality within the Godhead, but this view imposes later trinitarian concepts on the ancient text. Some have suggested the plural verb indicates majesty, but the plural of majesty is not used with verbs. C. Westermann (Genesis, 1:145) argues for a plural of "deliberation" here, but his proposed examples of this use (2Sa_24:14; Isa_6:8) do not actually support his theory.

In 2Sa_24:14 David uses the plural as representative of all Israel, and in Isa_6:8 the Lord speaks on behalf of his heavenly court. In its ancient Israelite context the plural is most naturally understood as referring to God and his heavenly court (see 1Ki_22:19-22; Job_1:6-12; Job_2:1-6; Isa_6:1-8). (The most well-known members of this court are God's messengers, or angels. In Gen_3:5 the serpent may refer to this group as "gods/divine beings." See the note on the word "evil" in Gen_3:5.)

If this is the case, God invites the heavenly court to participate in the creation of mankind (perhaps in the role of offering praise, see Job_38:7), but he himself is the one who does the actual creative work (Gen_1:27). Of course, this view does assume that the members of the heavenly court possess the divine "image" in some way. Since the image is closely associated with rulership, perhaps they share the divine image in that they, together with God and under his royal authority, are the executive authority over the world.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Jason Badejo

Houston what is your opinion of Grudems statements?

Do you think God exists as "three distinct separate individual persons". And should we use the plural "they, their, them" when speaking about God? And if there are three separate individuals who are all God, how then can a trinitarian assert they believe in one God?*

Historical, Orthodox Trinitarianism avoids speaking or describing the Persons as Separate Individual.

They believe the three are One being, one in number

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Luke

How would you as a oneness believer deal with this verse?

And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Ghost it shall not be forgiven. — Luke 12:10 (KJV)

If oneness doctrine is correct why does it make a difference if you blasphemy Jesus or the Holy Ghost since they are both one and the same? Would not a person blaspheming Jesus also be blaspheming the Holy Ghost at the same time?

The Trinitarian has to have the same answers since all three are equally God

But they are not "One and the same", they are distinct and in this case we should note it says "Son of man".

He is not the Eternal Son of man. That term ties into his being human.

That was the only way the Son of man could be blasphemed