Those who never heard about Jesus?

[mfblume]

Rom 6:3....Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

Rom 6:6....Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

Rom 6:8-9....Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him: ..(9)....Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.

[Antipas]

Originally Posted by mfblume

They are not the same one in Buddha as in Christ simply because they spoke similar words.

John 10: 7 Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep
8 All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.
9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.

Quoting similar words as Jesus does not make one of God. Satan quoted the word.

It's what actually saves that determines a true prophet of God

Each religion is filtered and communicated through human agents and the humanity of each manifestation. However, the messages dovetail and are primarily the same as it relates to spirituality. The one who said that he is the door, is the same one who was manifest in Nanak, Krishna, Buddha, and others. Each religion becomes "idolatry" when its leaders become exclusivists that deny the whole of divine revelation and profess that they alone hold the entirety of divine revelation.

I do understand that you're taking Christ's words literally. But that presents a serious problem. Was Noah a thief and a robber? Abraham? Moses? King David? What about the numerous prophets of the Old Testament? Jesus is obviously speaking of false sectarian cult leaders and false messiahs that were exclusivists who separated their followers into divisions and sects, not bonafide prophets of God, regardless of culture and religious heritage.

[Godsdrummer]

Those who never heard about Jesus?

Should not the question be more like, "those that have not heard YOUR particular twist on the gospel"?

Mat_24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Col_1:23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

Rom 10:18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.

Religion has turned the simple good news of Christ into a big business, it is no longer about what Christ did, rather it has become about tradition, vain deceit, and the philosophy of men. So as to build up a kingdom of man not Christ.

[Aquila]

I believe in Prevenient Grace. Prevenient Grace is defined as:

Prevenient grace refers to the grace of God in a person's life that precedes conversion (or salvation). Prevenient Grace is the moving of the Holy Spirit in a person's life before he accepts Christ as his Savior. It is He that reproves man of his complete sinfulness, and shows man his need of Christ. It is the Spirit that moves into the hearts of man to woo, persuade, and convict him of his need for salvation. If any reformation takes place in a sinner's life, it is due to the operation of the Holy Spirit, and not any good works of man.

I believe that the following Scriptures speak of Prevenient Grace:

Gen 6:3 "And the Lord said, My spirit shall not always strive with man..."

John 6:44 "No man can come to me, except the father which hath sent me draw him:..."

I believe that God's Prevenient Grace extends to all mankind. However, Prevenient Grace can be resisted. When Prevenient Grace is in action the Spirit of God begins to draw the spirit of a person. That person may not be consciously aware of the Spirit's leading. However, they might feel unfulfilled in their current spiritual path or condition. They might feel conviction for sin, like their faith is lifeless, and have the general impulse that there is something more. This is the "inner calling". If they surrender to this drawing, God begins to orchestrate events whereby they might have opportunity to hear the Gospel. If they harden themselves against this drawing, rededicating to their false religion, sin, atheism, or philosophy, or delving into another equally false answer.... eventually God will surrender them to their own desires. At this level, God is dealing with the "spirit" of a man, the "inner man", not the soul (the conscious mind of man). When one hears the preached Gospel (the "outer calling") now both the "inner man" (spirit) and the "soul" (conscious mind) have been called to Christ. Again, the person has opportunity to either obey the Gospel or reject it. God may continue drawing that soul until their eventual surrender or God might cease striving with the individual.

In this way, every human being on the planet has had opportunity to be saved. And every human being on the planet has had opportunity to accept this inner prompting or reject it, even if only on the level of "spirit".

No one will have an excuse. God will be able to show exactly when and how He has attempted to draw every human being on earth. And God will be able to show who surrendered to that drawing and who didn't.

While there are many who have never heard the Gospel.... every spirit has experienced the drawing of the Holy Spirit, that "inner calling" to greater truth. And as we can see.... billions are rejecting it this very moment.

It is our going forth and preaching that aids in helping strengthen the drawing of Prevenient Grace, that the will might be persuaded to surrender to the drawing on the sinner's spirit.

[thephnxman]

Originally Posted by Godsdrummer

Those who never heard about Jesus?
Should not the question be more like, "those that have not heard YOUR particular twist on the gospel"?
Mat_24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
Col_1:23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;
Rom 10:18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.
Religion has turned the simple good news of Christ into a big business, it is no longer about what Christ did, rather it has become about tradition, vain deceit, and the philosophy of men. So as to build up a kingdom of man not Christ.

So your "twist" is better?

I agree with the last paragraph, about religion turning into "big business".
HOWEVER, seeing that you did not address anyone in particular, are you
suggesting and or attributing the post as a blanket statement against
everyone on this forum? Of course, YOU would be the exception, right?

"Judge righteous judgment."

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Antipas

Each religion is filtered and communicated through human agents and the humanity of each manifestation. However, the messages dovetail and are primarily the same as it relates to spirituality. The one who said that he is the door, is the same one who was manifest in Nanak, Krishna, Buddha, and others. Each religion becomes "idolatry" when its leaders become exclusivists that deny the whole of divine revelation and profess that they alone hold the entirety of divine revelation.

Satan quoted the word of God to Jesus, but his biggest and overall principle and philosophy was extreme error. Same with Buddha and Krishna. It was not God whatsoever working in these men like it was Christ. They taught things like dualism, reincarnation, etc. These things fly directly in the face of biblical teachings. To say there is a "whole of divine revelation" with inclusion of Buddhist thought and these others, is to say God conflicts with Himself, since the teachings conflict one another.

I do understand that you're taking Christ's words literally. But that presents a serious problem. Was Noah a thief and a robber? Abraham? Moses? King David? What about the numerous prophets of the Old Testament? Jesus is obviously speaking of false sectarian cult leaders and false messiahs that were exclusivists who separated their followers into divisions and sects, not bonafide prophets of God, regardless of culture and religious heritage.

When Jesus spoke of all who came before Him, he was referring to people bringing a way of salvation to the world. Moses LED TO Christ, as did all of the other biblical prophets. Buddha and Krishna came AS CHRIST.

The Old Testament has words to Israel to reject anything from any other religion and not incorporate any of it into their faith, and that He specifically through prophets and men of Israel alone would guide them. This accusation of exclusivity being evil is another direct conflict with the Bible.

What happened to you, Antipas? You believe everyone eventually gets saved, and now you believe all these religions are of God! When did THAT change take place?

[shazeep]

hmm, i see many accepting grace lately, so i'm not sure who you mean by those "rejecting." But i'm not sure if we have the same definition of "Gospel" yet, either, although it seems like we do. If you see as many going forth and preaching their ersatz groupthink gospel--more--that are actually hindering Christ at every turn, and annulling the drawing of prevenient grace, then ya. The illusion of certainty is a powerful draw.

You think you can judge, but you cannot!

If anyone thinks he knows anything, he does not yet know it as he ought to know it.

[Antipas]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Satan quoted the word of God to Jesus, but his biggest and overall principle and philosophy was extreme error. Same with Buddha and Krishna. It was not God whatsoever working in these men like it was Christ. They taught things like dualism, reincarnation, etc. These things fly directly in the face of biblical teachings. To say there is a "whole of divine revelation" with inclusion of Buddhist thought and these others, is to say God conflicts with Himself, since the teachings conflict one another.

God doesn't contradict himself. Limited human interpretations of divine truth contradict themselves. Reincarnation is mentioned in the Bible, it is tradition that rejects the notion. Here is an example.

Malachi 4:5
Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord:

This was said long after Elijah had died. For this reason the Jews believe that Elijah will appear and herald the coming of Messiah. Yet the New Testament teaches that Jesus is the Messiah. Where was Elijah? God promised to send "Elijah the prophet", did God forget? No. We read that God did indeed send Elijah.

Matthew 17:12-14
12 But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.
13 Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.

John was Elijah reincarnated. There are also many other references to reincarnation that fly in the face of Christian tradition. But they are there.

When one religion emphasizes a given truth and another doesn't, or is completely silent on a truth, that doesn't mean that said truth is error.

When Jesus spoke of all who came before Him, he was referring to people bringing a way of salvation to the world. Moses LED TO Christ, as did all of the other biblical prophets. Buddha and Krishna came AS CHRIST.

Buddha and Krishna predate Christ. Wouldn't it be more appropriate to say that the One who was in Buddha and Krishna is also found in Christ? Jesus does practically quote them in several places.

The Old Testament has words to Israel to reject anything from any other religion and not incorporate any of it into their faith, and that He specifically through prophets and men of Israel alone would guide them. This accusation of exclusivity being evil is another direct conflict with the Bible.

It only conflicts with the exclusivist interpretation of the Bible.

What happened to you, Antipas? You believe everyone eventually gets saved, and now you believe all these religions are of God! When did THAT change take place?

I don't believe that every religion is of God. It is quite the contrary. I believe that every religion, as we know it today, has been distorted by human translators, theologians, and leaders. As a result, every religion on the planet is in error. However, in spite of the error, various divine truths can be found in every religion. Thus no religion on earth is absolute truth. But very religion contains truth. The spiritual seeker who is pure in heart will find these truths.

Is Hell forever? Yes and no. When I hear this question, I think of a short exchange between Alice and the White Rabbit from, Alice in Wonderland.

Alice: How long is forever?
White Rabbit: Sometimes, just one second.

The soul evolves and changes through time. Many souls are in unrest because they have not forgiven themselves, feel unworthy, deny that they are dead, or because they have not accepted the spiritual realities they are now experiencing due to those experiences being contrary to their religious dogmas. It is often the most "religious" that find the greatest trouble passing over. This is an everlasting "Hell". But eventually every soul will surrender, find peace, and enter the Light. Those who do enter the Light return to the Source of All, God, and are as rain drops returning to the sea. They will once again emanate from the Source as naturally as water vapor once more arises from the seas in the midday sun. In this, the Source (God), experiences all things (including himself) in innumerable ways. He desires to know and be known. And so through this He both knows and is known. This has been the process since all life evolved from a single celled organism roughly 3.5 billion years ago. He is the All In All.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Antipas

God doesn't contradict himself. Limited human interpretations of divine truth contradict themselves. Reincarnation is mentioned in the Bible, it is tradition that rejects the notion. Here is an example.

Malachi 4:5
Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord:

That is the SPIRIT of Elijah, not actually Elijah. The bible says it is appointed unto man once to die.

Luke 1:17 KJV And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.

This was said long after Elijah had died. For this reason the Jews believe that Elijah will appear and herald the coming of Messiah.

Not by being born as a baby and growing up.

They believe he will actually appear - the very same person. Fully grown and an adult like he left. Not born from a second womb and grow. Man, we can make the bible say anything if we take that reasoning you are displaying.

Yet the New Testament teaches that Jesus is the Messiah. Where was Elijah? God promised to send "Elijah the prophet", did God forget? No. We read that God did indeed send Elijah.

Matthew 17:12-14
12 But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.
13 Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.

Luke 1:17 KJV And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.

John was Elijah reincarnated. There are also many other references to reincarnation that fly in the face of Christian tradition. But they are there.

That us extreme extreme error.

When one religion emphasizes a given truth and another doesn't, or is completely silent on a truth, that doesn't mean that said truth is error.

THEY CONFLICT.

Buddha and Krishna predate Christ. Wouldn't it be more appropriate to say that the One who was in Buddha and Krishna is also found in Christ? Jesus does practically quote them in several places.

Nope, no more than the one in satan was the one in Moses when satan said the words of Moses.

It only conflicts with the exclusivist interpretation of the Bible.

No, it is what the bible actually teaches. Like I said, Read Exodus 20 and note how God said to not mix anything in with His name from other religions.

I don't believe that every religion is of God. It is quite the contrary. I believe that every religion, as we know it today, has been distorted by human translators, theologians, and leaders. As a result, every religion on the planet is in error. However, in spite of the error, various divine truths can be found in every religion.

Even satanism.

Thus no religion on earth is absolute truth. But very religion contains truth. The spiritual seeker who is pure in heart will find these truths.

Is Hell forever? Yes and no. When I hear this question, I think of a short exchange between Alice and the White Rabbit from, Alice in Wonderland.

Alice: How long is forever?
White Rabbit: Sometimes, just one second.

The soul evolves and changes through time. Many souls are in unrest because they have not forgiven themselves, feel unworthy, deny that they are dead, or because they have not accepted the spiritual realities they are now experiencing due to those experiences being contrary to their religious dogmas. It is often the most "religious" that find the greatest trouble passing over. This is an everlasting "Hell". But eventually every soul will surrender, find peace, and enter the Light. Those who do enter the Light return to the Source of All, God, and are as rain drops returning to the sea. They will once again emanate from the Source as naturally as water vapor once more arises from the seas in the midday sun. In this, the Source (God), experiences all things (including himself) in innumerable ways. He desires to know and be known. And so through this He both knows and is known. He is the All.

You never explained what happened to you because you did not write like this a few years ago.

Praying for you.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Rom 6:3....Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

Rom 6:6....Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

Rom 6:8-9....Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him: ..(9)....Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.

"Know ye not"? What do you mean, Paul? Know? You said if we think we KNOW anything, we really don't know anything at all. We cannot KNOW we were baptized into Jesus' death, because you said we cannot know anything, and it's worse if we think we do!