Destination Heaven?

[Sean]

Lol

[Evang.Benincasa]

I guess Sean is at his sixth beer.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Sean, did you pick up a suitcase after work?

[JamesGlen]

Originally Posted by Sean

Read all about heaven in Revelation chapter 21 and chapter 22.

Originally Posted by JamesGlen

Please prove that those 2 chapters are both all about heaven, in depth if you have time.

Originally Posted by Sean

Prove that they are not about heaven when you get time

Please don't post on my thread anymore, if you're going to do foolish things like the above.

[Sean]

Deal, read the verses and come to your own conclusions.

[JamesGlen]

If anyone would like to post scriptures that are not in the book of revelation, in which they are for sure speaking of heaven as our(born again believer) final place of destination following our death and resurrection, please post them.

[Aquila]

I believe that what most call "Heaven" is only the intermediate state wherein we await resurrection. Through Christ Jesus, God will restore creation to its Edenic glory. Here's a post I posted some time ago on what I believe:

I believe we will have glorified bodies in Heaven's New Jerusalem on the New Earth, ruled by the never fading majesty of creation's King, Jesus Christ. I believe there will be worship, prayer, praise, family, cities, nations, cultures, languages, traditions, trades, farms, music, food, arts, sports, dancing, laughter, exploring, hiking, and the most beautiful nature with vast green forests, sandy beaches, cool crystal clear waters, and awe inspiring snow covered mountains. There will be holy science, sacred learning, to the benefit of all people and the creation itself. All of this, and more, in a redeemed and glorified New Creation. Some will be given roles of leadership in the earth's government as kings, others will be given leadership in the church as priests forever, others will find their callings in other ministries throughout eternity. Many that have felt the call of God on their lives here, but who have never been able to fulfill that call, will realize their calling in eternity as we serve the Lord forever. I believe the eternal Heaven will be full of every enjoyment originally intended for man. Sin and Satan will have won nothing. We will experience a never ending and unfading Heavenly Renaissance.

All things will be redeemed.

Numbers 14:21
But as truly as I live, all the earth shall be filled with the glory of the LORD.

Isaiah 11:9-10
9They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.
10And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.

Isaiah 65:17-25
17For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
18But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.
19And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.
20There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.
21And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them.
22They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.
23They shall not labour in vain, nor bring forth for trouble; for they are the seed of the blessed of the LORD, and their offspring with them.
24And it shall come to pass, that before they call, I will answer; and while they are yet speaking, I will hear.
25The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD.

Habakkuk 2:14
For the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.

Revelation 21:1-27
1And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. 5And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
6And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
7He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
8But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
9And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.
10And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
11Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;
12And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:
13On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates.
14And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
15And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof.
16And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal.
17And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel.
18And the building of the wall of it was of jasper: and the city was pure gold, like unto clear glass.
19And the foundations of the wall of the city were garnished with all manner of precious stones. The first foundation was jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, a chalcedony; the fourth, an emerald;
20The fifth, sardonyx; the sixth, sardius; the seventh, chrysolyte; the eighth, beryl; the ninth, a topaz; the tenth, a chrysoprasus; the eleventh, a jacinth; the twelfth, an amethyst.
21And the twelve gates were twelve pearls: every several gate was of one pearl: and the street of the city was pure gold, as it were transparent glass.
22And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.
23And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.
24And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.
25And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.
26And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it. 27And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

Revelation 22:1-2
1And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
2In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

What will eternity be like in Heaven's New Jerusalem? One word... GLORIOUS.

In my opinion... unless God restores creation to its pre-fall glory... Satan will have won by conquering God's intention for the physical universe. Christ rose from the dead in a glorified physical body. He wasn't just a ghost... and so we too will be resurrected bodily... for we shall be like Him.

Now... a Christoplatonist perspective teaches that we will experience an eternity existing as undefinable "disembodied" "ghosts", floating in a void of light, serving a glorified Savior who was raised bodily. I just don't buy that. There is a resurrection of the dead. A glorification and a reconstruction of the entire creation. The effects of the fall will be no more.

[n david]

Originally Posted by n david

A few questions:
You don't believe we'll live in heaven, that we'll be there only temporarily. You said the earth is man's. And you stated that we'll have physical bodies like Adam had in the beginning.

1) Is the earth you believe we'll inhabit the current earth? If so, how do you reconcile that to 2 Peter 3:10 and other scriptures which point to an end of earth. Also, why would Jesus speak of His Father's house and mansions if we're only to live on this earth?

2) Adam was flesh and blood as we are, yet the Bible says we will be changed and transformed when we are caught away. Do you believe we will be flesh and blood?

3) Who will we rule over? Who rules over whom?

I was taught, and believed that the earth will be destroyed. It won't be around anymore at all. There will be a new heaven and a new earth. We will live with Him forever. We will not be flesh and blood, but will be eternal, spiritual beings. And I've heard a couple different viewpoints on ruling, but haven't thought about it much to form my own belief. The first is that there is some type of hierarchy of rulers, saints who will rule over other saints. The second is that the faithful saints will preside in the judgment.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by n david

A few questions:
You don't believe we'll live in heaven, that we'll be there only temporarily. You said the earth is man's. And you stated that we'll have physical bodies like Adam had in the beginning.

1) Is the earth you believe we'll inhabit the current earth? If so, how do you reconcile that to 2 Peter 3:10 and other scriptures which point to an end of earth. Also, why would Jesus speak of His Father's house and mansions if we're only to live on this earth?

2) Adam was flesh and blood as we are, yet the Bible says we will be changed and transformed when we are caught away. Do you believe we will be flesh and blood?

3) Who will we rule over? Who rules over whom?

I was taught, and believed that the earth will be destroyed. It won't be around anymore at all. There will be a new heaven and a new earth. We will live with Him forever. We will not be flesh and blood, but will be eternal, spiritual beings. And I've heard a couple different viewpoints on ruling, but haven't thought about it much to form my own belief. The first is that there is some type of hierarchy of rulers, saints who will rule over other saints. The second is that the faithful saints will preside in the judgment.

My daughter was very little she asked if the destruction in fire was like Noah's flood, then would animals be raptured? Earth purged, destroyed by fire. Then animals, fish, reptile, insect, mammals, birds with all plant life would also perish. While adults tend to blow this all off, it is a good question. My daughter asked after we had listened to a brother go for about 30 minutes of parallels between Noah's flood, and Peter's Burning earth.

[mfblume]

You don't believe we'll live in heaven, that we'll be there only temporarily. You said the earth is man's. And you stated that we'll have physical bodies like Adam had in the beginning.

1) Is the earth you believe we'll inhabit the current earth? If so, how do you reconcile that to 2 Peter 3:10 and other scriptures which point to an end of earth. Also, why would Jesus speak of His Father's house and mansions if we're only to live on this earth?

The words of Peter concern language that apply to the old covenant, and changeover of covenants, not literal planet earth.

The last days were the last days of the Law.

* When God would bring in a new covenant.
* He ratified it with the outpouring of the Spirit.
* Peter was well aware of the situation around him.
* His ministry led him to about 66 AD, four years before Jerusalem was destroyed.
* He was crucified upside down according to history.
* He spoke of mockers and pointed them to what Jesus pointed out.
* The flood.
* He said they might be ignorant, but all things have not continued as they were from the beginning.

There was a flood.

* The world at that time was overflowed and perished of water.
* People died in the flood.
* The earth did not die.
* The dove Noah released returned with an olive branch.
* Nothing was wrong with the earth.
* Noah even planted a vineyard.
* It was not the world that I walk on.
* That was not what was dissolved.
* The people perished.

Peter said "the heavens and the earth which are now."

* Now there is another heaven and earth that will have fire rained on it.
* If the first one was not destroyed, then what was this other one?
* It's not talking about the cosmic world.
* Heavens and earth are biblical terms concerning the people of God.

We are not near as smart as some of these archaeologists are.

* They find things that say the earth is millions of years old.
* I may not believe all of that, but they have lots of indication of a massive flood at one time, for example.
* I saw an oyster shell 14" across from end to end, found at Summit Lake at the highest point of the Alaska highway.
* The world was overflowed with water.
* But the world did not perish.
* The people did.

Peter speaks of the "day of the Lord."

We may get into this later, but it is indicative of a day of judgment that God would bring upon nations or His own people.

* Zephaniah 1 is a good example of what is the day of the Lord.
* Zephaniah spoke of Babylon overthrowing Jerusalem in the early 600's BC.
* When Peter spoke of the day of the Lord, He said it would come like a thief in the night.
* Preachers scared the daylights out of us with those messages.
* But then I read 1 Thess 5, where the bible says it's not for us, to overtake us like a thief.
* All of this language is apocalyptic of judgment to fall in a matter of a few short years from the time Peter wrote this, upon the city of Jerusalem.
* The elements would melt with fervent heat and the earth also, and the works shall be burned up.
* Things would be dissolved.
* The earth would be dissolved.
* "Find a hole!"?
* No.
* That is not what he is saying.


Look back into Psalm.


Psalms 75:1-3 To the chief Musician, Al-taschith, A Psalm or Song of Asaph. Unto thee, O God, do we give thanks, unto thee do we give thanks: for that thy name is near thy wondrous works declare. (2) When I shall receive the congregation I will judge uprightly. (3) The earth and all the inhabitants thereof are dissolved: I bear up the pillars of it. Selah.

Psalms said the earth was dissolved, not going to be dissolved.

* You can stay in the Bible and stay with David's kingship and follow for at least 500 years of lineage and ministry of the house of David.
* If the earth was dissolved, how can you do that?
* You cannot dissolve the earth without dissolving everything in it.
* So how could Solomon rise up if the earth was dissolved?
* God is speaking of series of judgments upon Israel due to disobedience.


Isaiah 24:16 From the uttermost part of the earth have we heard songs, even glory to the righteous. But I said, My leanness, my leanness, woe unto me! the treacherous dealers have dealt treacherously; yea, the treacherous dealers have dealt very treacherously.
Who is God speaking to?

* Israel.
* Earth is not South America or Mexico or Russia.
* It's the land of Israel.
* That is where Isaiah prophesied.


Isaiah 24:18-21 And it shall come to pass, that he who fleeth from the noise of the fear shall fall into the pit; and he that cometh up out of the midst of the pit shall be taken in the snare: for the windows from on high are open, and the foundations of the earth do shake. (19) The earth is utterly broken down, the earth is clean dissolved, the earth is moved exceedingly. (20) The earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard, and shall be removed like a cottage; and the transgression thereof shall be heavy upon it; and it shall fall, and not rise again. (21) And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall punish the host of the high ones that are on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth.

Language of judgment.

* The language indicates severity of judgment that God would bring, and it did happen.
* Isaiah foretold what would happen and what God would do to get them out of it.


Isaiah 34:1 Come near, ye nations, to hear; and hearken, ye people: let the earth hear, and all that is therein; the world, and all things that come forth of it.
Can the earth actually hear?

* It is speaking about His people!


Isaiah 34:2-6 For the indignation of the LORD is upon all nations, and his fury upon all their armies: he hath utterly destroyed them, he hath delivered them to the slaughter. (3) Their slain also shall be cast out, and their stink shall come up out of their carcasses, and the mountains shall be melted with their blood. (4) And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree. (5) For my sword shall be bathed in heaven: behold, it shall come down upon Idumea, and upon the people of my curse, to judgment. (6) The sword of the LORD is filled with blood, it is made fat with fatness, and with the blood of lambs and goats, with the fat of the kidneys of rams: for the LORD hath a sacrifice in Bozrah, and a great slaughter in the land of Idumea.

What is God saying?

* He is sick and tired of all their sacrifices.
* So He will judge them.
* How?
* Take the heavens.
* How many light years are out there?
* God would take the heavens and roll it all up.
* He is speaking of a severity of judgments to take place on the earth.

2) Adam was flesh and blood as we are, yet the Bible says we will be changed and transformed when we are caught away. Do you believe we will be flesh and blood?

Flesh and blood is a periphrasis, or a word picture using a small phrase to indicate something like MANKIND in its current state. Flesh and blood does not meant skin and hemoglobin. Man in his current mortal form cannot inherit the kingdom, so there will be a change in our bodies in the resurrection to make what is now mortal into immortal bodies.

3) Who will we rule over? Who rules over whom?

Jesus is king of kings and rules over us all. Others will magistrate over cities. And mostly we rule over the world. Adam was given dominion over creation, not other people.

I was taught, and believed that the earth will be destroyed. It won't be around anymore at all. There will be a new heaven and a new earth. We will live with Him forever. We will not be flesh and blood, but will be eternal, spiritual beings. And I've heard a couple different viewpoints on ruling, but haven't thought about it much to form my own belief. The first is that there is some type of hierarchy of rulers, saints who will rule over other saints. The second is that the faithful saints will preside in the judgment

Your latter remarks may be the case. But I lean toward the new heaven and earth as symbolic of new creation and new covenant. The same words found in Rev 21 about all things are made new and old things passed away are found in 2 Cor 5 talking about us as a new creation/creatures. Hebrews 1 talks about heavens waxing old like a garment and then Hebrews 8 talks about the old covenant waxing old. Isai 51:16 shows God speaking about creation when in fact he only called ZION his people at that time. Creation literally did not occur then, but new creation as a covenant is meant to be understood.