2 Peter 3

[Apostolic1ness]

Originally Posted by Esaias

And this why I cannot buy what futurism is selling, because the OVERWHELMING MAJORITY of futurists literally have no idea what they are talking about, they seem clueless when it comes to having any kind of rational framework within which to interpret prophecy. The general scenario they present is simply not present in the Bible, and more importantly becomes a clearly obvious IMPOSSIBILITY to anyone who actually is familiar with prophecy and how THE BIBLE ITSELF uses and explains its own prophecies.

I simply cannot take a first year ESL student seriously when they try to school me on advanced English poetics, grammar, or rhetoric.

The ability to explain ones position has no bearing on whether or not the position is true or not.
Some on this forum may be able to articulate their position very well and that doesn't make the position true or false.

If you cant buy into something because of another's inability to explain it, then obviously their position is false.... right.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Apostolic1ness

The ability to explain ones position has no bearing on whether or not the position is true or not.
Some on this forum may be able to articulate their position very well and that doesn't make the position true or false.

If you cant buy into something because of another's inability to explain it, then obviously their position is false.... right.

Not at all what I said. But if you want to believe doctrine articulated by people who clearly do not understand doctrine, by all means, go for it.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

OK then make it simple for me. Is Jesus Christ going to EVER literally and personally come down from Heaven and gather a literal Church to be with him? If so will it take place IN THE FUTURE?

Or has it already occured, meaning it is in the past?

Do you really need to ask me this? Of course Jesus is going to literally, physically return, raise the dead, and change the living saints to immortal. Obviously, that hasn't happened yet, so of course it's future. I didn't even claim Peter was talking about a past event!

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

The problem seems to be you dont think Paul and Peter are referring to the SAME EVENT when both of them write of the day of the Lord coming like a thief.

What do we have? Two apostles of Jesus teaching two differing things? Or could it be they both are relaying to us what Jesus taught them?

My thread on the Son of Man and His Coming demonstrates that Jesus' teaching is far more in depth and covers far more than you seem to be limiting it to. To say "coming like a thief" must always mean "The Second Coming"™ is simply wrong according to Jesus and the apostles.

[Michael The Disciple]

Second Coming-Thief In The Night.

What did Apostle John see?

Revelation 16:1-16

1And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.

2And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.

3And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.

4And the third angel poured out his vial upon the rivers and fountains of waters; and they became blood. 5And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus. 6For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy. 7And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are thy judgments.

8And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire. 9And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.

10And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain, 11And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.

12And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.

13And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. 14For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty. 15Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. 16And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

John as far as we know was the last of the Apostles to see Jesus. He saw the amazing revelations we call the book of Revelation. Here we can see
what HE SAW as to the day of the Lord coming like a thief.

Note specifically verses 14-15.

It is here we see that the teaching of the DAY OF THE LORD is linked by the vision John sees with the same day of the LORD that comes like a thief in the night taught by Jesus, Paul, and Peter.

In the New Covenant era this day of the Lord is presented as the day in which Jesus comes to gather together his chosen people. We have shown already EIGHT SPECIFIC VERSES where Paul describes the day of the Lord as his coming for his people.

Peter spoke of the same day in 2 Peter 3:4-10. A day when the promised coming of the Lord for his people will take place along with Gods judgment on the wicked.

The fact that John sees the same thing and records it for us is all the proof the end time disciple needs to have hope that Jesus WILL COME and gather the saints to himself at the specified time.

We see from John in the following verses this will be at the time of the battle of Armageddon.

14For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.15Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.[/B] 16And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

Here at this time when the beast is ruling nations and God is punishing the wicked for sins the Lord Jesus gives a final warning to his people to GET READY FOR HIS COMING!

So John calls this the battle of the great DAY OF GOD ALMIGHTY.

Peter called it the DAY OF THE LORD.....AND THE DAY OF GOD.

2 Peter 3:10-11

10But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

11Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

Remember Jesus is BOTH Lord and God. John 20:28

Sounds a lot like Armageddon, same as John saw!

But it also sounds a lot like Paul taught the disciples THE DAY OF CHRIST, OR THE DAY OF THE LORD.

2 Thess 1:7

7And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

He calls this the day of Christ a few verses later.

2 Thess 2:1-2

1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

Paul referred to this "day of Christ" as the "day of the Lord" that would come like a thief to these same people.

1 Thess 5:1-2

1But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. 2For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

So my friends that clinches the deal.

Paul, Peter, and John the three chiefest apostles spoke of the day of the Lord, day of Christ, and the day of God all in context of Jesus:

a. Coming for his people.
b. Coming like a thief.

[Michael The Disciple]

Esaias

Do you really need to ask me this? Of course Jesus is going to literally, physically return, raise the dead, and change the living saints to immortal. Obviously, that hasn't happened yet, so of course it's future. I didn't even claim Peter was talking about a past event!

I need to ask you this because you wrote this.

Originally Posted by Esaias View Post
And this why I cannot buy what futurism is selling, because the OVERWHELMING MAJORITY of futurists literally have no idea what they are talking about, they seem clueless when it comes to having any kind of rational framework within which to interpret prophecy.

All I have been presenting is the fact that the apostles taught there is a day coming when Jesus will actually COME FOR HIS PEOPLE.

No idea why it would be opposed.

[1ofthechosen]

Originally Posted by Esaias

The text literally says the saints, knowing what's coming, ought to be looking for (anticipating) AND HASTENING THE ARRIVAL OF THE DAY. That is, the saints are literally involved in some manner with bringing the arrival of the Day of God, we are supposed to be doing something(s) that actually hastens or brings closer this Day of Divine Judgment in which evil is destroyed and in which righteousness is the norm, not the exception.

In other words, the TIME of this Day of Judgment is conditional in some sense upon the activity of the saints.

Is it this? Matthew 24:14 "this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come."

[1ofthechosen]

Originally Posted by Amanah

The problem with systems of interpretation such as Dispensationalism or Covenant Theology is everything is read with an end in mind, with preconceived ideas.

Absolutely agree with that, and I think we as Apostolic's need to come out of these boxes created by Trinitarian's. If someone is going to create a hybrid Theology it has to be in this area. It makes no sense to not agree on soteriology, sanctification, the identity of God, and then agree on Eschatology. But your right sis it all is viewed through a certain lens, with a predetermined view in mind. And in that, you cant see anything outside of that. Or even comprehend anything anyone is saying outside of that line of thinking. I'd rather sit back and observe it with no predisposed ideas, and look into it and see what the Bible is relating. I believe this is a area as a movement that this is needed like never before.

[1ofthechosen]

Originally Posted by Esaias

You do not allow the Old Testament to properly inform your understanding. The apostles taught, and expected the listeners to verify what they taught from Scripture. Yet the only Scripture in existence was the Old Testament. Therefore, they would understand "day of the Lord" as the OT uses it, not as you use it, with a wholly new limited sense that cannot be proven by any means other than because you say so.

This is a 100% correct because I've yet to read the scripture where Paul or anyone else said that they got a new revelation of the day of the Lord, and if that we're so it would've been said. Otherwise, this becomes more of that trinitatarian view of the Bible that we don't have to follow anything that's not in the NT when there is only 1 book which is probably a letter written to someone Theophilus a bunch more letters and one book of Prophecy. As if the Apostles who wrote the NT besides for the Apostle John didn't even know know what they were writing was going to be holy scripture at all. They never read the NT they were the NT and all they had was the OT. So we can chalk up all that train of thought to simply to a man's idea somewhere between the 15th century and now, but it has nothing to do with Jesus or His teaching. I've yet to see The passage that advocates that teaching, yet I hear it used all the time as a rule of thumb to Biblical Interpretation. "It didn't say it in the NT, so we don't have to follow that anymore..." I guess I never read that scripture, I wonder who said it? Does anyone know enlighten us all...

[1ofthechosen]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

OK then make it simple for me. Is Jesus Christ going to EVER literally and personally come down from Heaven and gather a literal Church to be with him? If so will it take place IN THE FUTURE?

[B]Or has it already occured, meaning it is in the past?[/B]

And 3,2,1 it begins now. This is old faithful to MTD, after no one accepting this as the truth on a whole other thread here we go again. MTD no one yet has ever ascribed this nor alluded to this stance. Once again you can't see what's being related because a predisposed lens you have came with on the scriptures at hand. You have missed the boat again.

Oh btw you never said anything about this
http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com...&postcount=225

The book of Kings shows clearly that Jehoram was King when Elijah was alive before his translation. So the book of Chronicles has been interpreted by the Book of Kings and well what about Elijah writing this letter 8 years later on top of Mount Ararat? Did you know this, overlook this, or simply just unintentionally leave this out?