The Beast Is Destroying the Whore

[Nicodemus1968]

Originally Posted by Esaias

The problem is you ignore the fact Jesus Christ was born, grew up, and DIED. Therefore as a man He WAS MORTAL. He resurrected, raised from the dead, and is AS A HUMAN immortal. He is the firstborn FROM THE DEAD. In your view the man DOES NOT EXIST ANYMORE. He ascended and ceased to exist according to you.

The problem is you ignore the fact Jesus Christ was born, grew up, and DIED. Therefore as a man He WAS MORTAL. He resurrected, raised from the dead, and is AS A HUMAN immortal. He is the firstborn FROM THE DEAD. In your view the man DOES NOT EXIST ANYMORE. He ascended and ceased to exist according to you.

I have never said Jesus wasn't born of a women:

Matthew 1:23
[23] Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

Clearly he was, yet, this was God himself.

I never said the child grew up:

Luke 2:40-52 KJVS
[40] And the child grew, and waxed strong in spirit, filled with wisdom: and the grace of God was upon him.
[41] Now his parents went to Jerusalem every year at the feast of the passover.
[42] And when he was twelve years old, they went up to Jerusalem after the custom of the feast.
[43] And when they had fulfilled the days, as they returned, the child Jesus tarried behind in Jerusalem; and Joseph and his mother knew not of it.
[44] But they, supposing him to have been in the company, went a day's journey; and they sought him among their kinsfolk and acquaintance.
[45] And when they found him not, they turned back again to Jerusalem, seeking him.
[46] And it came to pass, that after three days they found him in the temple, sitting in the midst of the doctors, both hearing them, and asking them questions. [47] And all that heard him were astonished at his understanding and answers. [48] And when they saw him, they were amazed: and his mother said unto him, Son, why hast thou thus dealt with us? behold, thy father and I have sought thee sorrowing.
[49] And he said unto them, How is it that ye sought me? wist ye not that I must be about my Father's business?
[50] And they understood not the saying which he spake unto them.
[51] And he went down with them, and came to Nazareth, and was subject unto them: but his mother kept all these sayings in her heart.
[52] And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man.

I never said he didnt die:

Matthew 27:46-54 KJVS
[46] And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
[47] Some of them that stood there, when they heard that, said, This man calleth for Elias.
[48] And straightway one of them ran, and took a spunge, and filled it with vinegar, and put it on a reed, and gave him to drink.
[49] The rest said, Let be, let us see whether Elias will come to save him.
[50] Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
[51] And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
[52] And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
[53] And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
[54] Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.

**Side note** Too bad those that resurrected had to go back to the graves. They all have to wait for Jesus to clean this up so he can establish his kingdom here, right Isaiah?

I do believe he resurrected, I believe it more than you do.

John 20:25-31 KJVS
[25] The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe.
[26] And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.
[27] Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.
[28] And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
[29] Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.
[30] And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
[31] But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

Luke 24:2-9 KJVS
[2] And they found the stone rolled away from the sepulchre.
[3] And they entered in, and found not the body of the Lord Jesus.
[4] And it came to pass, as they were much perplexed thereabout, behold, two men stood by them in shining garments:
[5] And as they were afraid, and bowed down their faces to the earth, they said unto them, Why seek ye the living among the dead?
[6] He is not here, but is risen: remember how he spake unto you when he was yet in Galilee,
[7] Saying, The Son of man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and the third day rise again.
[8] And they remembered his words,
[9] And returned from the sepulchre, and told all these things unto the eleven, and to all the rest.

Isaiah I believe in Acts 2:38 as the salvational message. I believe he was born of a virgin, he grew mightily in spirit, he was crucified on a cross, and then he was resurrected showing his power over death, hell, and the grave.

Matthew 28:18 KJVS
[18] And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

In other threads you mocked me and some others who demanded Scripture for what you were claiming. So your rejection of God's Word is totally par for the course. Repent while you still have a chance:

Now your just getting personal. I can bring up old posts that you have done, and the names you have called people. MTD, maybe he would like to testify to that??? You ask for scripture in a way to prove what you believe right and others wrong. You don't ask in a way to further the discussion, you ask as a “gotcha”. There are some on this forum that help you do that. For instance, your stating TJJJ and myself are saying Jesus dissolved into thin air. And your asking for scripture that stats “Jesus’s body dissolved” and you will not accept no other scripture other than the exact way you mentioned. So, its not I that have rejected the word, rather yourself that wants the word in a certain way.

So you no longer have the SON. Which according to apostle makes you... what? Antichrist.

I believe in the son.

John 3:16-17 KJVS
[16] For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
[17] For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

Luke 1:35 KJVS
[35] And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

Isaiah 9:6 KJVS
[6] For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

John 5:23-29 KJVS
[23] That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.
[24] Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
[25] Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
[26] For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
[27] And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
[28] Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
[29] And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

[Nicodemus1968]

Continued;

Now, I believe I stated to you with scripture that I believe Jesus was born of a virgin, grew, died, and resurrected. I believe the in the Son of God. The discussion is, Easias believes the Human Body of Jesus is in Heaven, I do not believe in that. I believe the body spiritualized into the church, wife, his chosen people. I dont believe in a 5’6” Jesus waiting up in heaven until he can finally begin his earthly kingdom reign.

1 Corinthians 12:12-14 KJVS
[12] For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.
[13] For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
[14] For the body is not one member, but many.

1 Corinthians 12:27 KJVS
[27] Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.

So, the body of Jesus Christ is the many members of the church. Yet, its also up in heaven waiting for his reign??? That means when we die and finally resurrect were going to have 2 bodies??? Or am I wrong?

Let’s look at another:

Luke 24:39 KJVS
[39] Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

Jesus said “for a spirit hath not flesh and bones”. That puts a difference between the flesh (human body) and Spirit. So, according to Easias Gods spirit is within us right now and Human Jesus is in heaven. So, is Jesus a spirit or is he flesh? Thats why we say you believe in 2 Gods, many preachers believe in 2 gods. Because they cannot separate the flesh and the spirit. Thats why JW’s, Mormons believe the same way as you do. God the Spirit and Jesus the Human. Benincasa and yourself make fun of MTD because of his Logos space suit thing, and I dont believe that either, yet you both believe in something similar. He believes the body of Jesus was created before and God kept it in heaven I believe. And you believe the body is in heaven waiting for the final days.

Who was Jesus BEFORE his BIRTH?

1 Timothy 3:16 KJVS
[16] And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

John 1:1-14 KJVS
[1] In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
[2] The same was in the beginning with God.
[3] All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
[4] In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
[5] And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
[6] There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
[7] The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
[8] He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
[9] That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. [10] He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
[11] He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
[12] But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
[13] Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
[14] And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Matthew 1:23 KJVS
[23] Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

John 10:30 KJVS
[30] I and my Father are one.

John 8:55-59 KJVS
[55] Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying.
[56] Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. [57] Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
[58] Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
[59] Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

Even the Pharisees were puzzled, your not even 50 and you have seen Abraham? The spirit that dwelled in that body was the GOD of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob. That body was nothing without the spirit. The SPIRIT GIVETH LIFE....

Philippians 2:6-11 KJVS
[6] Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: [7] But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
[8] And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
[9] Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
[10] That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
[11] And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Thats the difference right there. We know who Jesus is. He is God. He was God of the Old Covenant and He is God over the New Covenant.

Acts 4:8-12 KJVS
[8] Then Peter, filled with the Holy Ghost, said unto them, Ye rulers of the people, and elders of Israel,
[9] If we this day be examined of the good deed done to the impotent man, by what means he is made whole;
[10] Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.
[11] This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.
[12] Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

The difference is he now has a name. I’m not going to take the time, but his name was hidden in the Old Covenant, yet it has been revealed in the New. There is no difference with God except he took on a name that is above every name.

So asked who was Jesus before his birth. He was God and He still is God. The human body was used as a sacrifice for our sins. The body is not to be worshipped yet Jesus is to be worshipped. As soon as the cross was completed and Jesus ascended into Heaven he went to the spiritual form he was before. And the body is now the church. Because,

John 4:21-24 KJVS
[21] Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.
[22] Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
[23] But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
[24] God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

God is a Spirit! Jesus is not a human up there because the sacrifice is completed. Jesus is God. And God is a SPIRIT not a HUMAN.

The Body once again,

Acts 8:1-4 KJVS
[1] And Saul was consenting unto his death. And at that time there was a great persecution against the church which was at Jerusalem; and they were all scattered abroad throughout the regions of Judaea and Samaria, except the apostles.
[2] And devout men carried Stephen to his burial, and made great lamentation over him.
[3] As for Saul, he made havock of the church, entering into every house, and haling men and women committed them to prison.
[4] Therefore they that were scattered abroad went every where preaching the word.

Saul was making havoc of the CHURCH,

Acts 9:1-9 KJVS
[1] And Saul, yet breathing out threatenings and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord, went unto the high priest,
[2] And desired of him letters to Damascus to the synagogues, that if he found any of this way, whether they were men or women, he might bring them bound unto Jerusalem.
[3] And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven:
[4] And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?
[5] And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
[6] And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.
[7] And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man.
[8] And Saul arose from the earth; and when his eyes were opened, he saw no man: but they led him by the hand, and brought him into Damascus.
[9] And he was three days without sight, and neither did eat nor drink.

Even Jesus was telling Saul Your persecuting me. Yet, I thought he was making havoc of the church? Jesus is the Church

Jesus is GOD! God is a Spirit
The Body of Christ is the Church!

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Amanah

Bro Esaias, pls explain this passage for me:

John 1:49-51 King James Version (KJV)
49 Nathanael answered and saith unto him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God; thou art the King of Israel.

50 Jesus answered and said unto him, Because I said unto thee, I saw thee under the fig tree, believest thou? thou shalt see greater things than these.

51 And he saith unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Hereafter ye shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man

Nathanael was convinced Jesus was "the Son of God, the King of Israel". The Messiah was the prophesied descendant of David and heir to the throne of God. The Messiah was called "the son of God" because of Psalm 2:

Psalm 2:1-12 KJV
Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing? [2] The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the Lord , and against his anointed, saying , [3] Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us. [4] He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision. [5] Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure. [6] Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion. [7] I will declare the decree: the Lord hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. [8] Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession. [9] Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel. [10] Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth. [11] Serve the Lord with fear, and rejoice with trembling. [12] Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.

Here the Lord's "anointed" (v. 2), or "Christ"(Greek)/"Messiah" (Hebrew), is the king ordained by Jehovah (v. 6). This Christ/Messiah who is the Divinely appointed king is called God's "son" (v. 7). Verses 8-12 prophesy that this anointed king would possess the nations as an inheritance and execute judgment upon them and rule over them. The title "son of God" is a title conferred on Divinely appointed rulers, such as Adam (Luke 3:38), and Israel (Hosea 11:1, Exodus 4:22, Hosea 1:10), and David (Psalm 2:7). All of these find their ultimate fulfillment in the literal only begotten son of God - Jesus of Nazareth.

Nathanael confessed Jesus as Messiah, as Son of God, because of the supernatural sign attending Him (Jesus knew what Nathanael was doing even though He wasn't there physically). So Jesus basically says "You ain't seen nothing yet."

The phrase "angels ascending and descending on the Son of Man" refers to two things.

First, the dream of Jacob:

Genesis 28:10-22 KJV
And Jacob went out from Beer-sheba, and went toward Haran. [11] And he lighted upon a certain place, and tarried there all night, because the sun was set; and he took of the stones of that place, and put them for his pillows, and lay down in that place to sleep. [12] And he dreamed, and behold a ladder set up on the earth, and the top of it reached to heaven: and behold the angels of God ascending and descending on it. [13] And, behold, the Lord stood above it, and said, I am the Lord God of Abraham thy father, and the God of Isaac: the land whereon thou liest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed; [14] And thy seed shall be as the dust of the earth, and thou shalt spread abroad to the west, and to the east, and to the north, and to the south: and in thee and in thy seed shall all the families of the earth be blessed. [15] And, behold, I am with thee, and will keep thee in all places whither thou goest, and will bring thee again into this land; for I will not leave thee, until I have done that which I have spoken to thee of. [16] And Jacob awaked out of his sleep, and he said, Surely the Lord is in this place; and I knew it not. [17] And he was afraid, and said, How dreadful is this place! this is none other but the house of God, and this is the gate of heaven. [18] And Jacob rose up early in the morning, and took the stone that he had put for his pillows, and set it up for a pillar, and poured oil upon the top of it. [19] And he called the name of that place Beth-el: but the name of that city was called Luz at the first. [20] And Jacob vowed a vow, saying, If God will be with me, and will keep me in this way that I go, and will give me bread to eat, and raiment to put on, [21] So that I come again to my father's house in peace; then shall the Lord be my God: [22] And this stone, which I have set for a pillar, shall be God's house: and of all that thou shalt give me I will surely give the tenth unto thee.

Jacob dreamed about a ladder with God's angels descending and ascending upon it. He said this is the house or dwelling-place of God, the very gate or entrance to heaven. By putting Himself in the place of the stone pillar Jacob anointed with oil (an anointed Rock identified as the Dwelling-place of God and the entrance or Way to God), Jesus was saying Nathanael would begin seeing signs and wonders and other proofs that He, Jesus, was the true Bethel, or House (dwelling-place) of God, the Way to the Father, the anointed Rock.

Second, by referring to Himself as "the Son of Man", He was not only asserting the patently obvious truth that He was a descendant of Adam, that is to say, a male human. But He was also identifying Himself with the expected Jewish apocalyptic figure known as "The Son of Man", which was taken from Daniel 7. Jews speculated about who this character in Daniel's vision would be: Enoch, Elijah, the archangel Metatron, the "Lesser Jehovah", or some other character. Jesus was claiming HE was the Son of Man figure described in Daniel 7. For more information see my thread "The Son of Man" in the Apostolic Articles section of The Library here on AFF. Or click here: ---> http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com...ad.php?t=50706

He was asserting that Nathanael would soon begin to see Divine proofs that He, Jesus of Nazareth, was the Son of Man described in Dan 7, and that as Messiah/Son of God/Divine King and heir of David, He was in fact the genuine entrance to the presence of God, the very dwelling place or abode of God (ie God tabernacling with us, God manifested in flesh, etc).

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Nicodemus1968

Thats not what he’s asking for.

That's EXACTLY what I was asking for.

But notice the past tense: WAS asking. I am no longer PRESENT tense asking.

You bowed out of rational discussion earlier on with your "So now you believe in the spirit?" nonsense. Sorry, I cannot take you seriously.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by james34

Derailed.......

Sorry for the train wreck that happened here. Let's get back to the thread subject.

Originally Posted by james34

Revelation 17
16 And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.

17 For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.



In her (mystery babylon) was traded evry desirable good , even the souls of man.
How?
- The "love" of money is the root of all evil.
- She ruled over the kings of the earth, through this love.
-The very idea of the American dream(get a piece of the pie)is rooted in the idea of this love for money.
-To commit fornication, it is first necessary that there be a previous requirement of faithfulness to something.
-The people of the earth have become drunk with the wine of the wrath of her fornication
...inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication(Revelation 17)
-They (humanity) has left off to be faithful to God, through covetousness, are committing fornication
...Which while some men have coveted after, have pierced themselves through with many foolish and hurtful lusts which do drown men in sin and PERDITION.

Capitalism where God is first works wonderfully.
Capitalism, to the extent that it becomes ones driving force in life(God is left out) , does 2 things.
1)it makes men free from economic tyranny (this is unacceptable to socialistic views and must be destroyed)
This is why the kings of the earth will hate her and destroy her
The economy of the whole world is being brought to its knees, but that wont be enough. It must be redesigned.
2)It (capitalism) can become the means by which men can be, not just made rich, but shown the possibility of being rich(as an answer to all of life's issues) this can be a stumbling block that drawns men away from God, as they put their trust in uncertain riches, and become fornicators in the spiritual sense in turning from God.

There's a few things I would disagree with here, such as the source of the American dream being the love of money. I would say that is an inaccurate representation of the American dream. The American dream was to own one's own home, not be starving or dead broke or slaving away for pennies but either having a good job or being self employed. That is entirely Biblical. Nowadays of course it has been twisted into something unrecognizable. Half the country is clamoring for communism and a large part of the population is indeed straight up greedy and selfish and lovers of money and pleasures. But I don't want to quibble over terms.

I believe you are close in connecting Babylon with a financial system based in greed. But there's much more to it, I believe.

Revelation 17:1-2 KJV
And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters: [2] With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication.

Babylon commits fornication with governments. That is, alliances and agreements. These alliances with Babylon cause the citizens of those countries to become intoxicated (crazy, not sober, stupid, unthinking, excessive, etc). So it isn't Babylon that DIRECTLY intoxicates the public. Rather, it is the cooperation between Babylon and civil governments that releases an intoxicating influence on the masses.

Which means Babylon is a power structure that influences and uses national governments to delude the populace. It is not a mere "economic system" but an actual organised entity:

Revelation 17:18 KJV
And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

This is a "city that reigns over" national governments. It is a power bloc that is international and supranational. It controls national governments, and through that control it dominates the masses.

Important to a proper identification of this Babylon is the fact that the angel, in explaining the vision to John, did NOT say "this is that great city that WILL ONE DAY rule over the kings of the earth." Rather, the city is described in the PRESENT tense. Meaning it was already in John's day reigning over the kings of the earth. It continues to reign until it's destruction in Rev 18, which flows almost immediately into "Armageddon" which culminates in the return of the Lord and the destruction of the 2 beasts and the beginning of the Millennium. Therefore its lifetime stretches from John's day in the 1st century until some point relatively shortly prior to "Armageddon."

Another key identifying factor is this:

Revelation 11:8 KJV
And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

The great city (called Babylon in ch 17) is here identified as the place "where ... our Lord was crucified." Where was our Lord crucified? Jerusalem. Not Rome. Not America. But Jerusalem. This is a key to identifying the international power that "reigns" over (controls) national governments from John's day onward, which uses it's control over governments to intoxicate the citizens of those nations.

[Monterrey]

Amazing how different people can look at the same verse and come to two different conclusions.

Amazing!

[TGBTG]

Originally Posted by Monterrey

Amazing how different people can look at the same verse and come to two different conclusions.

Amazing!

Isn’t that exactly why we have so many denominations??..haha. We all look at the same scriptures and have different conclusions

[consapente89]

In Him dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead BODILY.

Bodily as in physically. Dwelleth as in dwells presently and continues to dwell. Written after the physical ascension of Jesus to the throne.

[Amanah]

Originally Posted by consapente89

In Him dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead BODILY.

Bodily as in physically. Dwelleth as in dwells presently and continues to dwell. Written after the physical ascension of Jesus to the throne.

Yep!

[james34]

He hath shed forth this which you now see and hear?
Shows a separation between the one that shed and that which was shed. What happened to the one who did the shedding?